Timeless Moment 224: Fake Seals & Real Damage — Trust in the Hobby

 In this Timeless Moment, Russell and Adz dive deep into a growing concern: fake Panini seals being applied to cards — and the ripple effect it's having on trust within the hobby.

Is it really "normal practice" to reseal cracked PSA slabs with Panini stickers before reselling them? We talk about transparency, collector ethics, and why this issue affects both seasoned veterans and new collectors alike.

We also touch on Veriswap, dodgy Downtowns at CollectFest, and what responsibility vendors have when things go wrong. A must-listen for anyone serious about protecting the future of card collecting.

Let’s keep this hobby honest.

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Transcript

Adz
And we're back with another timeless moment. Russell, what is today's topic?

00:32.39
Russell Gibson
Hello, Adam. Hello, everyone at home. We hope you find this well.

00:37.99
Adz
Yes.

00:38.17
Russell Gibson
We hope you we find you well.

00:39.33
Adz
i Hope you found this well. We we found you find you. This is not going to be timeless, Russell.

00:48.72
Russell Gibson
This could be a long, short episode.

00:50.69
Adz
This could be a timeless episode rather than a timeless moment.

00:54.64
Russell Gibson
All right. So the whole idea of Time Lost Moments is we do topics that you can reflect on and aren't dated so much.

00:59.92
Adz
Yes.

01:01.61
Russell Gibson
Okay. So this post is about people buying PSA slabs,

01:10.18
Russell Gibson
cracking them out.

01:13.09
Russell Gibson
applying on a fake Panini seal and reselling it. And I think that you could extrapolate this to a million different scenarios. You could extrapolate that to taking a card out of a OneTouch, putting it into a different OneTouch, and then putting a Panini seal on it.

01:30.48
Russell Gibson
It doesn't have to be out of a PSA graded card.

01:33.61
Adz
Yep.

01:35.42
Russell Gibson
um It could be...

01:40.46
Russell Gibson
um It could be any anything that you're doing to increase the value of a card that isn't legitimate. or you're not telling the seller, the buyer, I should say.

01:51.75
Russell Gibson
So I think we should, that that's just to sort of set the back ring of what we're about to you know to go in and talk about.

01:57.15
Adz
Yeah.

01:57.64
Russell Gibson
So this was a post that was put up on Sports Cards Addict Australia, and I'm going to read this word for word. Pains me to write this post, but I'm deeply gutted and frustrated after knowing about this. Just unbelievable what measures we need to do to make a buck.

02:12.29
Russell Gibson
For those that don't know, Pinini sometimes seals individual cards in tamper-proof packaging. And for context of that, when they would sometimes do that is when it's a redemption.

02:24.75
Russell Gibson
And when a card didn't make it into the inventory product and you would then get it back.

02:29.51
Adz
Yep.

02:31.21
Russell Gibson
And then the other scenario that they did it to was um in 1718, they did it for uncirculated cards. That was the other time they did it then too.

02:39.95
Adz
Yep. Yep.

02:41.78
Russell Gibson
Usually high-end hits...

02:41.89
Adz
Well, redemption replacements was the big one.

02:43.55
Russell Gibson
Yep. Yep. Yep.

02:46.25
Adz
um and Because that would happen.

02:47.05
Russell Gibson
Actually, it's...

02:48.21
Adz
Yeah.

02:48.85
Russell Gibson
Correct. Yep.

02:49.44
Adz
Yep.

02:50.53
Russell Gibson
Actually, Cyril's going to write that into his post here. Usually high-end hits from redemptions, replacements, or special releases.

02:53.02
Adz
Yep.

02:56.81
Russell Gibson
When people start faking these Panini seals, it creates a huge problem.

02:56.92
Adz
Yep.

03:00.58
Russell Gibson
And so this has been something that... I feel like people have known about for the last couple of years that you can just go online and buy these fake panini seals. This hobby is built on trust. We trade, buy and sell cards often without seeing them in person first.

03:15.64
Russell Gibson
And that's 100% true.

03:17.05
Adz
Yep.

03:17.05
Russell Gibson
that That is so true. That's the same as eBay or any other auction site too.

03:20.23
Adz
Mm.

03:22.25
Russell Gibson
That trust is what keeps this whole thing going. When faked sealed cards start floating around, it makes everyone question what's real and what's not. And we've spoken about that on the podcast. I would say...

03:33.15
Adz
Yep.

03:33.60
Russell Gibson
numerous times and probably at the end of the day,

03:38.42
Russell Gibson
that is what stops me purchasing some particular cards in the hobby. I would so say that for my own personal thing.

03:43.67
Adz
Without a doubt. Yep.

03:46.25
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

03:47.27
Adz
Yep.

03:47.40
Russell Gibson
And let's not to forget a lot of new collectors are getting into the hobby and many of us are introducing our kids to it. They should be learning about collecting passion and the stories behind the cards. If we let this kind of thing slide, it affects everyone.

04:00.42
Russell Gibson
So let's keep looking out for each other, educate those who might not know better. And I think that's the perspective

04:06.79
Adz
Yeah.

04:07.42
Russell Gibson
that we're taking from this episode.

04:08.70
Adz
ah

04:10.52
Russell Gibson
um We want to talk about this from a educational point, not a burn people at the stake, witch hunt type thing.

04:16.76
Adz
Yeah.

04:18.10
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

04:18.66
Adz
Yep.

04:18.93
Russell Gibson
And protect the hobby for the next generation. If anyone is thinking of lying like this to the hobby, think again and just stop. It's a small world and we are getting better at spotting scams now. Cards will returned to and sorted out by the op.

04:31.41
Russell Gibson
And so I think that's a really good you know good thing to talk about. as we've had this huge proliferation of information made available to us. So for example, PSA registries now have photographs attached to them.

04:39.93
Adz
yeah yeah

04:45.36
Russell Gibson
eBay listings will generally be made available for, you know, six months, a even longer with with the way that some websites will aggregate um data sales.

04:55.66
Adz
yeah

04:56.99
Russell Gibson
So for example, you know, 130 point, there's other apps out there will also take that data and hold onto it.

04:58.79
Adz
ah

05:02.42
Adz
yeah

05:03.31
Russell Gibson
Um, When I first saw this, what I actually thought was that the cards had been faked because you could see the PSA cards. They were graded authentic from PSA, auto nine.

05:17.69
Russell Gibson
And then the next photo you see,

05:17.99
Adz
Yeah.

05:21.17
Russell Gibson
is the cards outside of the PSA slabs in one touches with the Panini seal on.

05:27.41
Adz
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:27.48
Russell Gibson
So I think part of it was like the color difference in the cards, but I think at the end of the day, that was just like ah bad photograph on one, or let's not that's not fair to say that an underexposed photograph on one and one that had the color a lot more balanced.

05:41.98
Russell Gibson
But then as you then read through the ah comments, so let's just go down a little bit into this.

05:48.11
Adz
Yeah.

05:52.01
Russell Gibson
Raymond Nicholas Ganeer. Hi guys. I bought this card and eventually found out from Cyril that it had been cracked and resealed. I actually liked the card. have no issue with it being cracked. What I do take issue with is the fact that people were deceived into believing it was sealed.

06:05.70
Russell Gibson
For what reason? I don't know. Maybe to get a few extra hundred bucks, maybe to make the transaction smoother. And the thing is, these guys are stable in the hobbies. OGs,

06:16.30
Russell Gibson
You deal with them at card shows, you trust them. And now they say it's normal practice in the hobby. That's BS. They should know better. I've been refunded and will be returning the card. I'm disappointed.

06:27.18
Russell Gibson
And so obviously there'd been a conversation in that space and that was the initial response back that they got is that it's normal practice. So I suppose that's the next talking point for you and I just to talk about now is so how common practice is it

06:35.71
Adz
Yeah.

06:42.78
Russell Gibson
that people are doing this because I'm not aware of this being a common practice.

06:46.94
Adz
I'm not aware of it being a common practice and and to to cut that off with just because someone else is doing it doesn't make it right to do. um

06:55.25
Russell Gibson
Yeah, yeah, 100%.

06:55.73
Adz
Tonight, literally after seeing this post, this is the first I'd heard of fake Panini tags and things.

06:56.43
Russell Gibson
Yeah, yeah.

07:02.43
Russell Gibson
We have spoken about it before, Ad, but i I think this is the first example where it's been rubbed in our faces in the local Aussie community.

07:04.28
Adz
But it's Yeah,

07:08.15
Adz
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's, yeah, the local, like the the people that we do have a lot of trust in within the hobby.

07:10.60
Russell Gibson
I think that's the other thing too. ah

07:15.80
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

07:16.36
Adz
Yeah. Yeah, it's.

07:17.87
Russell Gibson
Yeah. so I think just like a couple more things just to add to the context of this, we actually did reach out to the op of this and invite them to come onto the show so that they could have um a fully unfiltered and uninterrupted time to respond.

07:18.27
Adz
Yeah.

07:32.92
Russell Gibson
So i think that's also worth adding in now because the questions that for me is obviously to ask is how common is this?

07:33.84
Adz
Yeah.

07:41.53
Russell Gibson
Where did you get the Panini seals from? And if you're telling us it's normal practice in the hobby, when did this become normal practice?

07:45.01
Adz
yeah

07:49.62
Russell Gibson
And what circles are participating in this normal practice? Because again, if like we're looking at this from an educational point of view, like that's to me is the obvious things to talk about.

07:53.07
Adz
hu

07:58.46
Russell Gibson
Because at least if people are doing this shady stuff, at least inform people about it.

07:58.87
Adz
yep

08:04.10
Russell Gibson
So then you can make an informed decision about it. Because that's what Raymond talked about too, is like he actually really likes the card.

08:10.68
Adz
yep

08:11.18
Russell Gibson
So it's more about him being deceived than like being scammed per se. And so, you know, the other thing I'm a little bit interested on here is like, why didn't they just renegotiate the card and then op refunded him some money back?

08:27.55
Adz
Yeah.

08:27.68
Russell Gibson
Like that, but maybe you get so dirty. You're just like, look, I want out of this deal and I don't want to have to deal with you anymore.

08:36.39
Adz
Yeah, yeah, this the correct.

08:36.91
Russell Gibson
do you know what I mean? And I can understand that perspective too, you know?

08:41.61
Adz
Yeah, yeah, I guess it's a tricky thing, right? you you make a deal based on what your perception of the card is, it turns out it's not what you you thought it was.

08:50.62
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

08:51.76
Adz
So i think that's enough to go with you know what, I don't want to proceed with this any longer. I'll go back and I'll see seek the card out in other through ah yeah through through other people.

09:02.32
Russell Gibson
Somewhere else. Yeah, I'll give my cash to another vendor. I think that's a fine way to feel, too.

09:07.12
Adz
Yeah.

09:08.40
Russell Gibson
I think that's fine.

09:08.82
Adz
Yep. Yep.

09:09.74
Russell Gibson
um Just to mark you up here, and I'm going to go scroll back to Rod Adams. A couple of vendors got scammed with fake downtowns with similar stickers at CollectFest last weekend.

09:14.25
Adz
Yeah.

09:19.09
Russell Gibson
It's horrific.

09:19.17
Adz
Yeah.

09:19.57
Russell Gibson
And unfortunately, these guys will thrive amongst under uneducated collectors, much like the fake signed merchandisers all over eBay in shopping centers and at markets in Australia. So now this is a little bit of a funny tidbit.

09:31.29
Russell Gibson
So when I was at CollectFest, I was actually at Peter Georgie's table when a intermediate seller came up to the table to try and sell them what turned out to be a fake downtown or Wemby and how it was picked up.

09:45.41
Adz
Yeah, yeah.

09:48.25
Russell Gibson
was that the printing on the back was like a little bit blurry. Now, I'm going to say, I'm going to use the word, a let this is the only time I hope to use allegedly in this podcast today, but allegedly that card was ah transacted via Veriswap.

09:52.21
Adz
Wow.

10:02.66
Russell Gibson
And so I reached out to Raymond when a whole bunch of stuff went down recently, and Raymond's been on the show before.

10:07.78
Adz
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.

10:08.91
Russell Gibson
um Great guy. I would love to have him back on again, because I think the follow-up to that alleged question is like, What happens when fake cards do get traded on it? Because that's what that's what Cyril's talking about here.

10:19.53
Adz
Yeah.

10:19.71
Russell Gibson
All this stuff is built on trust. If people are going on putting on fake cards, what is the protections in place to help people, you know, be made whole again, I suppose.

10:32.37
Adz
yeah

10:32.91
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

10:34.12
Adz
yeah it's it's It's that extra layer of deceit.

10:39.00
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

10:39.74
Adz
Like, and and correct me if I'm wrong, so the card is genuine.

10:44.52
Russell Gibson
Yeah, that's right.

10:45.37
Adz
So it's not a fake card.

10:47.15
Russell Gibson
That's right. And initially when I read it, that's where I was like, it actually is this a fake card, but it's not. It's just being cracked out of the slab into...

10:53.98
Adz
but it's been cracked out of the slab, put in, and then and then a tag being put over it. And just to for for context, um so another friend of the show, John O.

10:57.65
Russell Gibson
Correct.

11:04.11
Adz
Michaels will be one. Mailman Breaks.

11:06.85
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

11:07.22
Adz
He puts a tag over his slabs. Not his slab, but his one touches, right? To cover up the dot. And it's branded for his.

11:16.88
Russell Gibson
Well, yeah, i think it's more about breaker branding.

11:16.95
Adz
That's his stuff. Yeah, Breaker, but but that's a Breaker brand, right?

11:20.53
Russell Gibson
Yeah. Yeah.

11:22.80
Adz
that if I see mailman breaks, I know where it's come from.

11:27.10
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

11:27.73
Adz
But I think, yeah, I don't like the idea of people deceiving the the greater market by trying to convince people that it's a Panini issued slab.

11:38.12
Russell Gibson
yeah

11:38.88
Adz
Is that, is that where the, the, the main concern is, right? It's the deceit there.

11:44.74
Russell Gibson
Yeah. And I think traditionally, if you grade a card authentic, it means that it's not going to grade well.

11:49.00
Adz
hu You know, it's,

11:52.70
Russell Gibson
So someone's had a pretty good look at the card thinking, okay, there's no point setting this off for grading just for authentication, which is, and by the way, i think that's a really good thing to do in today's market because that protects you from this layer of BS, right?

11:58.89
Adz
Sure.

12:06.54
Adz
No. iMac, of course.

12:11.18
Russell Gibson
Like that to me is,

12:11.27
Adz
Like it's iMac's full of crap that like they they never grade a 10.

12:15.21
Russell Gibson
That to me is actually a little bit of the irony of the situation is like the card was actually removed out of something that was offering it protection and also buyer protection, right?

12:24.44
Adz
Mm. Mm.

12:27.33
Russell Gibson
like

12:27.65
Adz
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

12:29.74
Russell Gibson
And so I think what the purchaser was talking about here is why would you do something like this?

12:39.09
Adz
Yep.

12:40.77
Russell Gibson
Maybe to get a few extra hundred bucks. Because people then buy those cards with the thought in the back of their mind, I'm going to send this off to PSA.

12:47.74
Adz
Yeah.

12:51.88
Russell Gibson
Maybe it's going to come back with a high grade.

12:54.50
Adz
Yeah.

12:55.09
Russell Gibson
want to make a bit of money out of this. When in fact, you know, I think the writing's on the wall that's that that's in fact not the correct message.

13:01.70
Adz
Not gonna happen yet, for sure.

13:04.44
Russell Gibson
Scrolling down, Peter Georgie. Hey, everyone. This post is on behalf of myself and Max, excuse my pronunciation, Lau. I want to take this opportunity to take ownership and responsibility of what has happened. I'm reading this word for word.

13:18.42
Russell Gibson
I wasn't 100% honest with these two cards. I've admitted my fault to Raymond and Trent and Hans. I've also refunded all people involved as soon as I was possibly could.

13:30.30
Russell Gibson
I've never done anything like this before and I will not do anything like this in the future. I did not ghost or try to run away with anyone's money. I tried my best to rectify it ASAP.

13:40.92
Russell Gibson
This type of thing does go on in the hobby and it is 100% wrong. should not done i should not have done it Peter, I would love to talk to you about that statement.

13:52.88
Adz
Yes.

13:53.41
Russell Gibson
I think this is what people need to know. I've been in this hobby for a few years and done hundreds of deals with nothing but positive experiences and And I'm deeply sorry for how this has transpired. I've apologized profusely to all involved and done everything I can to make it right.

14:11.35
Russell Gibson
I hope that everyone I have dealt with in the hobby over the last four years can forgive myself and Max. We accept any punishment or bad perception we have in the hobby moving forward.

14:22.23
Russell Gibson
Sorry, going forward. I just hope that the ones we've dealt with over many years will see this as a mistake. As a one-off, it will never happen again. um That's the end of his statement.

14:33.83
Russell Gibson
So I was referring to Peter as op previously because I wanted to let this play out a little bit as I sort of had this play out to myself. So what's your first reaction from listening to that?

14:47.60
Adz
um sounds like someone that i don't think there's there's any i think there's genuine remorse in the statement um i don't think once you've been caught doing something like this you'll ever do it again unless you're a complete idiot um The statement saying he's never done this previously.

15:12.90
Adz
Look, I'll take that with a grain of salt.

15:18.08
Adz
When you get caught, it's always the first time, right? um We can't, we can't confirm it. We can't, subant like there's no, there's no getting the the the truth either way, unless you're there, unless you know, unless you've been in and around this environment.

15:34.53
Adz
Um,

15:38.31
Adz
I think it's a really good.

15:42.03
Adz
If you look through the thread, um it was it was ah as a brave call to come out and say say you made everybody whole. I think that's

15:55.56
Adz
that shows a bit of character to to make everybody whole.

15:58.29
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

16:01.42
Adz
It shows the the level of remorse that you've got. um But I think there's a lot of trust that's been destroyed. and And I think that stuff doesn't sort of just that does that doesn't rebuild.

16:14.57
Adz
And

16:17.81
Adz
yeah, I don't, I think the the I've seen that there's a lot of referents to 100% and 100% guarantee that this hobby will not forget what's happened.

16:30.96
Russell Gibson
Yeah, I think...

16:36.00
Russell Gibson
um I'm going to comment on this like outside of the hobby. This is just sort of like a blanket comment here. i think some people have a ah stomach for crime and some people don't.

16:47.33
Adz
Yeah, okay. Yeah, fair, fair, fair.

16:48.25
Russell Gibson
Do you know mean? So, it's like you sort of dip your your toe into the pool and you're like...

16:49.30
Adz
fair Yeah, yeah. Give it a crack, you know. What? Yeah.

16:53.74
Russell Gibson
This shit's not for me. I feel terrible. i feel guilty. i want to make this right as as much as I can. You know what i mean? So like, and the way I sort of read that, I'm kind of like, okay, he's done something. He's got busted. And he's like, look, this thug life, this outlaw life, this is not for Peter Georgie.

17:12.48
Adz
Yeah, fair.

17:12.69
Russell Gibson
You know? Like...

17:13.43
Adz
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, fair, fair, fair, for sure.

17:15.34
Russell Gibson
I want to go back to the hand moisturizer.

17:15.77
Adz
um

17:17.02
Russell Gibson
Thank you very much.

17:18.33
Adz
Yeah.

17:18.53
Russell Gibson
And so, um whereas, you know, we've seen other guys in the hobby, like who was that scammer that was hiding out in Carlton that was doing those like, yeah, Juan Lopez that did that huge Instagram card scammers page and was calling out all the scammers and he was the biggest scammer ever.

17:26.27
Adz
Oh, one of one or whatever. One, yeah, yeah.

17:35.36
Russell Gibson
It's like, guys like, right.

17:36.49
Adz
Building ah integrity to scam people.

17:39.38
Russell Gibson
But like, I bet you he's,

17:39.43
Adz
Yeah.

17:41.99
Adz
that was that was that was That was planned, long con, yeah.

17:44.56
Russell Gibson
But I bet you he is still scamming today, man. He doesn't care, right?

17:47.45
Adz
Of course.

17:48.83
Russell Gibson
he's just like he says He's just learning how to scam better for next time.

17:49.12
Adz
He just found the next scam.

17:52.97
Russell Gibson
And so you know is Peter like going down that path or is he just going down, look, this is you know pirate life's not for me?

17:53.42
Adz
Yeah, for sure, for sure.

17:59.06
Adz
I think Peter got caught and Peter's not doing this.

18:01.22
Russell Gibson
Yeah. and And by the way, that is pure speculation on my behalf.

18:04.86
Adz
Of course.

18:06.17
Russell Gibson
And again, Peter... We've reached out to you, mate. We would love to hear from you and get you on the record about this because, yeah.

18:15.49
Adz
For sure.

18:17.55
Russell Gibson
All right. We're at 18 minutes. Any further thoughts?

18:22.65
Adz
um I think i think

18:24.65
Russell Gibson
Slash last thoughts.

18:28.56
Adz
ah think it's a learning lesson. Again, there's a lot of these lessons. um Somebody's got to learn them, but it's glad I'm glad it's shared with the broader community when it happens.

18:38.67
Russell Gibson
Hmm.

18:39.08
Adz
ah it It makes us as a hobby stronger.

18:43.12
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

18:43.67
Adz
when we learn what's happening, when we share that information. um Yes, there are a lot of people out there to deceive, but yes, there are a lot of good people that have a lot of integrity and would never do that.

18:53.50
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

18:56.21
Adz
And that's what how this trust is built in the first place.

18:58.79
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

18:59.33
Adz
So I do want to finish on a bit of a positive and say the hobby is strong. ah We have a very loud voice in the community and and we look out for our own and we <unk> It's good to see things like this being made publicly aware and we don't need to pick up our stakes and pitchforks and go and burn somebody at the stake. We just need to make sure that as Rod Adams pointed out in the in the thread, that it's the new kids in the in the hobby. It's the new, the the people brand new to collecting.

19:34.56
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

19:34.74
Adz
They're the ones that we need to protect. and um And I think the hobby does a great job of doing that and making them aware of things.

19:36.42
Russell Gibson
Yeah.

19:43.87
Russell Gibson
All right, guys, that's it. Thank you so much. Take care of yourselves.

19:50.64
Adz
we'll see you in the next timeless moment.