Dan The Card Man: Grading, Whatnot, PSA Vault, Jordan

Dan The Card Man joins the show to pull back the curtain on the hobby and we get to all of the his favourite scams hobby wide. 

We dive deep into the systemic issues threatening the industry:

• The PSA Paradox: We tackle the "Vault to 10" pipeline. Is it a brilliant revenue stream or a massive conflict of interest when the grader becomes the dealer?
• The Whatnot Wild West: From breakers passing out on stream to bid-canceling scandals—why does the platform allow "unhinged" behavior to go unchecked?
• The Ownership Gap: What can happen on the PSA Vault when things go wrong?
• And to round out the show we do some card chatter. Mr Wonderful and Mr Jordan get a mention. 

Whether you're a high-end investor or a weekend ripper, this is a "state of the union" you cannot afford to miss.

Transcript

Welcome everybody to this week's show.

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This is the You Can't Comp This NBA Trading Card podcast. I am your host Russell Gibson and we are here with Dan

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the Cardman. And Dan, this is literally two and a half years in the making of us trying to line up diaries and personal

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schedules. Welcome to the show and how are you today? Thank you. I'm very excited to be I'm pretty good. Um spending some time with the kids. My son's birthday tomorrow, so doing a few

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things for that. But yeah, things are going well.

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Great. What's on his birthday wish list for for gifts?

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We bought him a scooter. Like I don't think he's at that age yet where he wants a lot of things, but one of those ride-on scooters that they can sit on that you can then transform into like a

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standup scooter and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, he'll be loving it. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what kids need, man. That's awesome. All right, let's just start at the very beginning. How did you become Dan the card man?

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Because I'm quite interested in people's genesis stories.

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Yeah. So, I've always been a card collector and you know, you would know this being an Aussie. Um, we're pretty big in terms of collecting, right?

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There's always been Facebook groups and things like that. It's been quite a passionate space. So, it was something that I certainly was always involved in from being a kid up until an adult. um

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when the pandemic sort of came around and the industry blew up, I sort of missed that first part when we were all in lockdown watching, you know, the last dance and all that kind of thing cuz I

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was considered an essential worker at the time. So, you know, it was very very busy. Um I missed out on that first boom. But when we went through, you know, the subsequent ones, I think in

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2021, you know, I got a bit bored at home and was like, "Oh, let's start recording content." And I started off just showing some of the cards I was buying and collecting.

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And then what started to happen was that I noticed some things happening within the industry that I wasn't super happy with and were quite alarming to me like scam related and all that kind of thing.

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And I felt like the commentary around it at the time wasn't all that strong and wasn't really that good. And there seemed to be a lot of people you know

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turning a blind eye to things. So I started you know highlighting those and that's where the traction sort of came in, you know, 2122 and then you know started to focus in on that.

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Yeah. Pandemic. Yeah. It's such a like a dirty word now isn't it? Yeah, it's crazy to think it's four years ago, right? So, a lot of really bad things

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happened off the back of it. The hobby got a lot of attention and there's been a lot of really good things from that.

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So, you know, look at the good and bad, right? But it sort of brought everyone's passion back and um you know, it's been a really exciting thing to be a part of seeing the hobby today where it is

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versus, you know, even 10 years ago. Like there was cards, cards that I'm buying now that are a few hundred bucks that were, you know, $5 back then, which is crazy.

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Yeah. Tell us about you talking about the Facebook groups. What were the original Facebook groups were in? Were you in NCM? The main one that I remember would have been Eureka, I think, that

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Aesthetic was in. I'm not sure if you ever broke with him or anything. He's one I think Cherry Collectibles had one back then as well. I don't remember any

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others that I can think of, but Eureka would be the one that I think stands out the most.

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Yeah. The thing that's changed the most in the last couple of years with the way we're interacting with the hobby now, it's not Facebook groups anymore. It's

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Instagram. And I think the really big one that's happening now is is whatnot.

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And that whole sort of well, eBay now, too. they've put their foot into this live breaking platform, but it's been another evolution. So, we've had that first part that's

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happened with co and now we've had this sort of secondary one. So, without going to like without going to the scam part of it yet, we'll hold that for later.

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Like, what's your thoughts on live breaking platforms, whatnot?

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Well, I think I think they're great. So, I think a lot of people um are not aware that I like breaking. It's how I really got back into modern collecting, right?

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So when Grayson from Cherry Collectibles used to break from his house, his apartment um building, I used to his room or whatever the word is I'm looking

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for. Um I used to be there, right? I was one of his first customers. So I'm very much into it. I think it's a great way and it sort of brought me back into modern collecting because obviously, you

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know, you buy cards at shops and things like that, but the whole hobby box aspect was really new to me around then.

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Um so despite being a collector, I was sort of unaware to all that. So that sort of brought me back into it. So breaking has always been something that I've been into. You know, platforms like

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the ones you mentioned, I think do a lot of really good things. I like them because I think it brings, you know, a lot of, you know, accessibility to people that maybe wouldn't be able to afford boxes, but there's some issues

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with how I think how they operate, um, and ways they could be better, but, you know, they do a lot of really cool things as well.

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Yeah. On your Instagram profile, it seems like you're more into soccer than basketball. So, just tell us about the stuff that you like to collect. Who's

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your goat? What's your favorite card that you've got in your collection?

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There's a few like I've talked about this before like I don't there's no card people I saw Jerry Milly talk about this on his podcast a couple weeks ago where he talks about coffin cards. So there's

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no one card in my collection I'm going to take to my grave. Um I've explained this before like I I I collect in a way that's you know enjoyable but not um

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after things that are going to you know take things away from my family if that makesense if that makes sense. So like there's not one card in my collection that I'll keep forever. So I

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don't really think of it that way. I I still look at the hobby as if it was cheap cards that we had growing up and things like that. But I I chase Chelsea

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players. I'm a big Chelsea fan. Um I'm Italian by heritage, so I buy a lot of, you know, Italy soccer legends and things like that. And I mainly try and

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focus in on oncard autos, game news relics, stuff like that. That sort of takes, you know, the love of the sport to that next level because it's like, oh cool, I've got, you know, an oncard

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auto. I've got one here of Nat Johnson actually that I recently picked up. So on card select 134, right? So it's like, well, he's touched this card, right? I like chasing things like that that are

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just more than a piece of cardboard that have a bit of a story behind it. With the game you stuff that I like to chase, I'm a bit of a nerd. So, one of the other things that I like to do is try and figure out which game that jersey or

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relic came from. So, then I can go ahead and watch that game and see, oh, did this player score a goal wearing that.

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And it's a bit harder for soccer. It's actually pretty easy to do for, you know, things like basketball. There's a podcast on YouTube called Wax Museum.

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I'm not sure if you've seen him before, but he he does a really good job at figuring out where certain NBA jerseys come from. And you know, it's another aspect of the hobby that's a bit of fun

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and you know, really underappreciated. I think if you're matching jerseys to a game, you need to have a very high attention to detail. And that's something that

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I have somewhat of an attention to detail, but not like that. Like that's the only reason why it's easier than you think is because a lot of these auction

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houses you could you could figure out it's a lot easier than what you think.

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There are certain auction houses that Panini and Tops are known to have bought from over the years and you can match them once you look at like the population of the relics that are out

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there. Um he he does a few videos on showing how he does it. For soccer it's a little bit harder. There was a Jean Luigi Buffon who's a goalkeeper for Italy legend one of the greatest

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goalkeepers of all time. And he had some relics in Eminence that they released in 2018 I think it was and they were really hard to find. I had to go through Getty

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Images to find where he wore specific jerseys to then know which kind of jersey I needed to search for.

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[clears throat]

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But yeah, bit of a fun rabbit hole.

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Oh, that's sick. talk to us about the content that you create and that you craft and why that you do that cuz I I

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think this is important and actually this is one of the reasons why I'm excited to have you on is because I think we make such different content from different ends of the sphere and I

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think it's going to be great to do a crossover because we do look at things so differently. So yeah, just talk to us about how you build content, why you build it, what motivates you, all that type of stuff.

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Yeah, I think like the main thing is I just want to try and be a voice for people and try and help people. I think is the thing first and foremost. So most of my content is tailored around, you

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know, scams and people out there doing, you know, shady things, dodgy things.

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Um, you know, a big video series of mine was looking into patch swaps specifically with some one-on- ones of like Lamar Jackson and things like that.

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So, it's about trying to raise awareness within the hobby, trying to educate people and trying to highlight things that maybe others aren't talking about.

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I really just want to help people and, you know, you and I were speaking before, you know, keeping the hobby safe and things like that. I think that's probably an element as well. There's a lot of stuff that goes on that I think

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not a lot of people talk about. And you know, in the past, I've tried to have what's quote unquote more positive content, showing off my collection, but people don't really want that from me.

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And in the back of my mind, there's 99% of this space talk about the sort of stuff, talk about the fun stuff of the hobby. So, I want to try and find a way

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to highlight the things that, you know, are causing people harm, I guess.

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Yeah. Yeah. So, I think my two cents on that is that that sort of highlighting the scams of the hobby actually that clicks really well, man. People love

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that stuff. They eat that stuff up. And I think the parallel to that is like the nightly news that's put on. If you put all good stories into the news, like no one's going to watch that. That's sort

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of a tried andrude sort of media recipe that's been done. And it's really interesting that you said that you'll try to put up, you know, more positive,

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I'm using air quotes right now, but positive or different types of content and people don't eat it. But I also wondered too if that's cuz that's the fan base you've also earned for yourself

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is people that they want that type of content. So when you do put up something different like that just doesn't click as well.

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Yeah. They don't click on it. Yeah. So they don't click on it and then like YouTube won't push it because they'll see like less subscribers or the less usual viewers are clicking on it. So then it doesn't get pushed through the

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algorithm. So that hurts it. But it's more about Yeah. Like I said that point of difference. And you know people I've had so much push back over the years. People think I'm this negative

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Nancy that sits there and he's angry all day talking about all the bad stuff in the hobby. But Aussies, you know, we're pretty laidback. For me, it's talking about something and then moving on. I

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want to try and educate. Like I said, yeah. One thing I'll give you credit for is cuz I find that stuff super depressing. It's I I almost want to

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avoid it on purpose. And not that I want to bury my head in the sand from it. If I'm building a list for a run sheet for a show, it just doesn't spark joy in me

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to talk about people getting scammed or people talking about, you know, losing a couple thousand dollars on a card, you know, whatever like the the concept or

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like the play is. So I think that's where my struggle lies when that type of content. I try to build a sheet that I'm interested in and the things that I

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enjoy in the hobby and and actually yeah that's like the way I build a run sheet actually it's not so much what's happening in the hobby. It's what's

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happening in the head in my hobby and I literally just write down things I'm thinking about and that's I do a deep dive into it and then it becomes a

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segment. So is that how you sort of do it too? like are these the things that you like you're sort of ruminating on and you're like ah I want to get to the bottom of it or

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it's that piece right it's it's the process behind it and how um it can be solved and how we can sort of learn from it and then improve so it's less about

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the the person getting ripped off and it's more about okay what what went wrong within the process where do I think the gap exists how can we improve it so things get better and it's also

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thinking about not just obviously I feel sympathy for the person who gets ripped off but it's more about how do we ensure the next person doesn't go through the same thing so my mind's focused in on

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how to help them which is and how I get comfortable and not get stuck in that whole negativity and and um you know depressing nature of some of these stories.

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Yeah, 100%. I was lucky enough to have the opportunity at Hobby Hangout recently and shout out to Andrew, the owner of the Hobby hangout. He's been

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very good to me for a very long period of time. I went around and interviewed vendors at the Hobby Hangout and also just punters that were there hanging

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around. And I was asking people two questions. The first question was, "Show us the coolest card that you've got in your collection." And then the second

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question was as a vendor what do you do to keep the hobby safe? And you mentioned Grayson before and Grayson's answer was nothing. I don't do anything

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to keep the hobby safe and it's not my responsibility to keep the hobby safe.

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So obviously I had a um a very large a scale like from end to end of what people responded but I was genuinely surprised about his response on that.

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Yeah that's interesting. I'll give him a pat on the back, right?

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Because one of the biggest issues in this space that I think happens are breakers doing some shady things, predatory things in terms of how they sell their product, how they communicate

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with their customers. He's someone that's the complete counter to that, right? Because he has like policies in place where he'll support people if he

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sees them spending too much money. He'll do check-ins with them. If people reach out to him and say, "Hey, I feel like I'm spending too much money." He'll block them and if they find ways to buy

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a spot in his brakes, he'll refund them, right? He's gone on the record and talked about those kinds of things. So he's actively working on things to make the hobby safer. Even though he may have

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quoted it the way you said or the way he said it to you, there are other things that he's doing that may be in his mind and not realizing making the hobby safe.

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But there are a lot of, you know, vendors that have that same mentality.

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Like I have the viewpoint that we all should be looking out for everyone else, right? We all have a obligation to try and help. And some of that push back also comes like I'll go back to

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breaking. I'll talk about some of these stories where people are getting skunked and they're going into debt. Like there's stories that I covered on Reddit maybe 12 months ago where somebody was

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in debt via credit card for like 100 grand in the US. Like insane because I had this addiction and you know when I was talking about it I was talking about

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it through the lens of okay well what could what not what could fanatics put in place to protect people from themselves right because you know here in Australia if you look at gambling

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apps and things like that there's a lot of policies in place procedures in place to stop you from yeah spend limits and things like that. Now whatnot's implemented those which they need a big pat on the back for.

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But people in my comments were sitting out and trying to help each other.

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Yeah. No, I don't think you're feeling sorry for someone. It's I think it's just more what can you do to make it I think also for me it's sustainable too.

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It's not sustainable if you've got people running up six figures of debt.

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Like that makes no sense at all.

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That's what a lot of these breakers like don't understand either. I was on um so I'm not sure if you've seen Professor Sports Cards. He has a show called The Hobby Collision and he gets a few people

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on. It's a bit of like a debate show and I've watched some of his content, but I'm definitely not in it every week.

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Yeah. Yeah. So, I was on his show this week and he was talking about Are you doing the rounds this week, man? On the shows.

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My Yeah, cuz it's it's my last week of non work, so I'm just trying to couple everything.

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So, you're like all these things you've been wanting to do on your holidays.

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You're like, this is it. This is my last week. Yeah. Well done. I tip my cap. All right. I want to talk about whatnot in terms of three different points. It seems to me that they're perpetual line

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steppers. Let's just call them that. and they seem to be enabling breakers doing pretty unhinged things and not just once

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too. Like I this is the my observation of whatnot is that you've got people doing illegal things on live stream which to me it just doesn't make sense

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in my head. I feel like if you're going to commit a crime at least do it in the privacy of your own home or not be recording it, you know, and broadcasting

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out to the world. So we got people using drugs on stream. We've had instances of people passing out which to me is just that's just diabolical. why does it keep

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happening or whatnot and like what's going on with this platform and then we can talk about the the breaker behavior in terms of cancelling bids and and all that type of stuff.

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Yeah. The the other thing just came back to me by the way if we we can go back to that later. I'll write it down for say it now. Say it now before you forget. Do it. Let's go.

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Yeah. It was it's the sustainability of breakers. You raising the point on debt, right? And how you don't want customers is not sustainable long term. The thing

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that I mentioned on professor's podcast was that you have breakers doing all this sort of stuff not realizing they have no power in the industry because

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literally they that could be taken their source of revenue their income could be taken away overnight if they get banned from or whatnot or if Topps or fanatic says hey we don't want to give you

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allocation anymore. So they're not treating it with the respect they should, which is why they should be looking out for their consumers. And when they see them struggling, instead

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of pressuring them to buy more because you've overspent yourself as a business owner, you know, look out for them because, you know, a customer that's happy to partake with you is going to be

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here 5 10 years down the line. But a lot of them are not thinking, you know, through that lens.

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I wonder if part of the pressure though is too is the volume that they would be buying as part of their allocation and managing their cash flow.

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Yeah.

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The perfect example of that was Pac-Man recently. Yeah.

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When he said that he bought 10 cases of of whatever it was and then he was using the guarantee word, I think that's what really got him to hot water and then

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he was saying that he'd only sold so many spots in a couple of hours and he was not being empathetic to people not being able to pay their mortgage. It was something along those lines. And I think

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that's the perfect example of that where he was clearly overleveraged. He needed to sell it all in two or three days and it was y a week later. That's an interesting one, right?

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Because he wasn't getting his product directly from Tops. He was buying all that on the secondary market like he didn't have a direct allocation. So I can understand. Is that confirmed though?

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Yeah, I think he's talked about that himself. The part of the reason why that box price was so expensive was because he he paid market value for it. So the ones that he was busting were bought at market value, not at MSRP.

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Call me [clears throat] the skeptic here, but I reckon at least some of it was at of course. Yeah. So that's where my So I'm going off what he said. My theory is similar to yours.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. He got some at a great price and he got some that was at market value.

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Sure. Like that's the that's how it is.

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Um but yeah, that's the like Sure. Like there's guys out there that would be in that situation, but you're making money hand over fist. It just goes back to the point that I was saying earlier, right?

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Like if you do right by your customers, they're going to be around. They're going to want to continue breaking with you. Money's not going to be a problem if you you approach things the right way. But you know, a lot of people are

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just not too savvy when it comes to that sort of stuff and they're here for the quick buck and they don't really care.

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Yeah. It's time for our first commercial break that is sponsored by Neon Trading Cards. Thank you to Neon Trading Cards for your ongoing support. Head to

16:37

16 minutes, 37 seconds

neonradingcards.com where you'll find a huge array of breaks. Soccer, NBA, MLB, F1, AFL, NRL,

16:45

16 minutes, 45 seconds

WWE, and Marvel. Find Neon Trading Cards on whatnot. Neon is the exclusive home of the Lucky Card Co. Repack Products,

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Australia's leading multisport repack company. Neon is also a Topps and Fanatics direct breaking partner. This

17:01

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week on whatnot platform, soccer releases are coming out of the woodwork.

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17 minutes, 7 seconds

It is soccer release time. Get on to the website. There is a huge array of soccer releases. Also, when you head down to

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17 minutes, 15 seconds

any of the trading card stalls in your local state and area, always go to Neon first. They are buying heavy. You will

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17 minutes, 25 seconds

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17 minutes, 34 seconds

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17 minutes, 44 seconds

Meanwhile, the main Neon Whatnot channel will run NBA breaks and the lucky CardCo repacks. Get in, get ripping, and don't miss out. Neon is where the action is.

17:54

17 minutes, 54 seconds

And we are back and we're going to continue our conversation with Dan the card man and whatnot.

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18 minutes

All right, back to whatnot and the breaking platform, the ethics, the shady behavior. Come on, let's go, man.

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The points on whatnot specifically probably more relevant to them with the way they onboard their customers. Um because like anyone can pick up a phone and almost start selling or whatnot.

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From what I've been told, the signup process is pretty quick. Like they don't really vet you in that much detail. I've been told takes maybe 30 minutes to get done.

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Um Fanatics is a lot more stringent than that. I've not yet seen what eBay Live's policy is. But the reason why whatnot's probably in the news more and then

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they're teetering along the line a little bit more than the others is simply because of the volume and their policies are maybe not as strong enough when they're onboarding people because their whole their thing is that anybody can pick up a phone and be a seller.

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That is actually their their company philosophy cuz we interviewed I can't remember his name and he was a really lovely man and he was essentially assisting the roll out of whatnot in

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Australia. This is probably about one or two years ago and he was fantastic. gave his time to us very generously and that was one of the things he actually talked about and that's essentially that's

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their selling point cuz I was asking him why don't you make the policy to have two cameras and he said cuz my belief as a breaker

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is you should always have two cameras cuz that stops that sort of potential for slight underhand of people swapping cards out and all that type of

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stuff and he's like well actually if we do that that then rules out about 90% of our customers that don't have the ability to put together a two camera rig

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19 minutes, 18 seconds

and da da da so they actually They want it simple. They want it streamlined to make sure that they've got the maximum

19:25

19 minutes, 25 seconds

people to be onboarded, which yeah, it makes sense. But the problem for them now is that got eBay Live and Fanatics as direct competitors.

19:33

19 minutes, 33 seconds

They might be playing catch-up a little bit if people start getting burned on their platforms. But, you know, it all makes sense, right? Like that's their that's their approach. That's their approach. That's their motto. That's how

19:40

19 minutes, 40 seconds

they want to go through with things. I think they've then dropped the ball in other areas in my opinion in terms of like you said people doing shady things

19:47

19 minutes, 47 seconds

multiple times and taking too long to sort of correct things. I think they can do more in that area and you know it's a difficult thing to manage right because

19:55

19 minutes, 55 seconds

when you think about how many people on their platform it's like how can you efficiently and effectively monitor this stuff and vet this stuff and then not only vet it but you then have to make a

20:02

20 minutes, 2 seconds

determination whether the person's making a fictitious claim, somebody has to review footage, you can't really automate it. Um, so it's not an easy problem to solve, but there are things I

20:10

20 minutes, 10 seconds

think they could do um that they're not maybe doing right now.

20:13

20 minutes, 13 seconds

This is probably not the right approach or the right answer, but at this point in time, there's so many influences.

20:19

20 minutes, 19 seconds

Okay, so take Blossom Card onto. So literally that's he's like every morning I wake up, go on to Instagram, his stuff's pretty much always at the top of

20:26

20 minutes, 26 seconds

my feed and it's just another person, you know, flaming out on whatnot. Like can't the whatnot team just look at his feed and then say, "Okay, great.

20:34

20 minutes, 34 seconds

And I think, but [clears throat] you know, he's a fanatics employee, right?

20:38

20 minutes, 38 seconds

Or he is an affiliate with them, a partner with them.

20:41

20 minutes, 41 seconds

How can I say this? It's not that I'm not aware, but I feel like he hasn't disclosed all of his affiliations. I think he's got his hands in a few different buckets.

20:49

20 minutes, 49 seconds

Yeah, I I would I wouldn't be surprised to be perfectly honest with you. So, I've I've communicated with that guy in the past. Been a bit hands off given some of the things that have gone on in

20:56

20 minutes, 56 seconds

recent months. But yeah, it's painfully obvious that he has um for lack of a better word, a heart on for some of these companies and not others because like when you look at whatnot as an

21:05

21 minutes, 5 seconds

example, there are things going on elsewhere that are just as bad. Like he's very focused in on PSA right now.

21:10

21 minutes, 10 seconds

You know, there are things that they're doing that he's being very critical of that the others are doing as well, but he's sort of ignoring them.

21:16

21 minutes, 16 seconds

He has a financial incentive in that, too. So, Fanatics have just announced a grading partnership with CGC. Yeah.

21:24

21 minutes, 24 seconds

Yeah. So you can make the argument that his boycott PSA May is directly in line.

21:31

21 minutes, 31 seconds

Yeah, I think I I think that's sort of where I would say most of the people that are paying attention to social media probably landed. Obviously there's a lot of people out there that are on

21:38

21 minutes, 38 seconds

the periphery that are not. Um but I just find it really hard to argue against what not, but then not the others. I find it really hard to push back on PSA but then not the others.

21:47

21 minutes, 47 seconds

You know, the only thing that PSA does differently to everybody else is the upcharging. like sure be critical of them for that but all the other things every other grader makes the same mistakes fundamentally the reason why

21:56

21 minutes, 56 seconds

you don't see as many is purely volume I've I've been pretty adamant on that like there's a lot of things that PSA are doing that I don't like I think their grading guarantee is terrible I

22:04

22 minutes, 4 seconds

think a lot of collectors um are not aware of how bad it actually is and I think CGC's best if you want to grade with your PC but I treat them all as the same and they're indifferent to me

22:12

22 minutes, 12 seconds

all right so let's let's just put whatnot on the back burner for a second we've already segueed into PSA break that all down for us talk about the

22:20

22 minutes, 20 seconds

upcharge. Talk about how PSA is protecting the hobby or not protecting the hobby. Talk about their current backlog. Talk about their current price

22:27

22 minutes, 27 seconds

structure. Talk about the protected guarantee. I would love to have the at least a fiveminute conversation on the protected guarantee.

22:33

22 minutes, 33 seconds

Yeah. So, like the grading the grading guarantee is a a big pain point for me because people will get a card graded by PSA and they'll think, well, PSA's put

22:41

22 minutes, 41 seconds

their name on it, I'm protected. But that's not the case. And there for me, that's the only reason to grade with PSA. It was it's like if you're

22:49

22 minutes, 49 seconds

grading your PC with PSA, you're not protected. It's literally that black and white. If you go to their website and look at their terms and conditions and you go to the grading guarantee section,

22:56

22 minutes, 56 seconds

it explicitly says if you are the original submitter, you're not you are not covered by this grading guarantee.

23:00

23 minutes

And what their grading guarantee is there to do is if they've said a card is genuine, but it's fake, they'll pay you out if you've bought

23:08

23 minutes, 8 seconds

that card off somebody else. But if you've submitted that yourself, you're not protected. If you look at their grading guarantee, they don't confirm the authenticity of autographs that are,

23:16

23 minutes, 16 seconds

you know, from a manufacturer, they don't confirm the authenticity of a patch. So, if you've got a patch auto, they're not looking at the patch. So, if it turns out to be patch swapped and you

23:23

23 minutes, 23 seconds

find that out later, PSA is not going to cover you. There are a lot of other things that are not in their grading guarantee either. And there's this weird, you know, misalignment where people think they're getting more when they're not.

23:33

23 minutes, 33 seconds

Yeah. So, the reason why I said CGC is my preferred one if you're grading your PCs because they're their grading guarantee is the only one that allows it or applies it to the original submitter.

23:43

23 minutes, 43 seconds

So, it's fine if you're buying all your PSA slabs from secondary people on the gray market or at shows and things like that. But, if you're grading for your PC and you're thinking PSA is going to pay

23:51

23 minutes, 51 seconds

out if they've made a mistake, that's not the case. They will not pay out unless you're a famous individual that has the opportunity to talk to them.

23:58

23 minutes, 58 seconds

Yeah. And push them hard on social media. I think a lot of cards do get sold on the secondary market. So, I see your point on the PC stuff. I think the

24:07

24 minutes, 7 seconds

reason why they've got that policy in place is that people would actively look the system.

24:12

24 minutes, 12 seconds

Yeah. To put cards through. So, I sort of feel like that's I understand your point, but at the same time too, I don't think they could change that policy because if they did, then

24:20

24 minutes, 20 seconds

people would be deliberately putting cards to get money back.

24:24

24 minutes, 24 seconds

The only push back I have on that is CGC are doing it right doing the volume, but CGC are doing it effectively. And from what I recall, they do it within the comic book

24:32

24 minutes, 32 seconds

industry. So, I feel like there are ways to do it. It's not going to be easy. And like I said, there's a lot of things in this space where we can push back and complain and it's a very difficult thing

24:40

24 minutes, 40 seconds

to fix. But if their largest competitor can do it, why can't they?

24:44

24 minutes, 44 seconds

How long has CGC been doing a card guarantee?

24:49

24 minutes, 49 seconds

I think since their inception. I I I So, don't quote me on that, but I'm fairly certain it's been there since they started grading cards. And I think it's been there since they were grading comics.

24:59

24 minutes, 59 seconds

That's probably worth checking um in post-production.

25:01

25 minutes, 1 second

Yeah, I was gonna say because I feel like that is more applicable for their comic books and cards. I've actually written that down because I want to deep dive into that further. I think that is

25:08

25 minutes, 8 seconds

a great comparison. I mean, my guess on that would be that it's just a matter of time till they change their policy to to be in line with PSAs. Like that to me just opens them up to way too much risk.

25:18

25 minutes, 18 seconds

Like essentially, that's how dodgy scammers can be, right? Like let's be honest on that.

25:22

25 minutes, 22 seconds

I talked about it like recently in a video. There's probably some other solutions that are there that I talk I talked about that I can't remember right now. But, you know, if I was looking to

25:30

25 minutes, 30 seconds

game the system and I was able to make fake cards, I would send in cards every couple months and see what slips through, see what doesn't, and then if they slip through and I know they're

25:38

25 minutes, 38 seconds

fake, I'm going to make a claim on that guarantee. There's a few other things with the grading guarantee that's also quite So, we spoke about very rich individuals earlier when I said, "Hey, maybe you could get some push back with

25:46

25 minutes, 46 seconds

them or some, you know, opportunities to get a guarantee if it is for a PC card." They actually cap the amount they'll pay out on. So, when you're seeing all these million dollar sales, they're not

25:54

25 minutes, 54 seconds

covered by PSA. PSA have an individual card cap of $250,000 USD and a lifetime cap per customer of half a million. For

26:02

26 minutes, 2 seconds

all these people that Yeah. So, for all these people out there that have millions of dollars in their collection, they're only protected up to 500 grand. And

26:10

26 minutes, 10 seconds

maybe that's why Shine's cards are all raw, man.

26:13

26 minutes, 13 seconds

Yeah, possibly. But the most alarming thing about that, right, is what you talked about earlier with the upcharges.

26:18

26 minutes, 18 seconds

They upcharge you for the expensive card, then they're not going to cover you and they have to pay out on it.

26:23

26 minutes, 23 seconds

Yeah, that's yeah, a bit of a joke.

26:25

26 minutes, 25 seconds

It is time to take a break now. Thank you to usportscards Australia for your ongoing love and support. Go to usportscardsaustralia.com.au.

26:34

26 minutes, 34 seconds

There you will find sealed products, brakes, card protection, Ross' beloved water pistols, and coma,

26:42

26 minutes, 42 seconds

or as Ross calls it, coma. Comier is a card consignment service that is local to Australia. Go on to the main website,

26:50

26 minutes, 50 seconds

click on the three little noodles, get your submission form, pay only 9 cents for your total submission. No matter how many cards you submit, just pay for the 9 cents right on your submission form.

27:01

27 minutes, 1 second

You can't comp this for this exclusive promo deal. Sales have been steady on the website. 600, 390, $240, $165. Money

27:10

27 minutes, 10 seconds

is flowing through the website. Ross is continuously developing on the back end and the new website will be launching very imminently. Also check out comca on Instagram, comca.tradingards.

27:24

27 minutes, 24 seconds

Thank you to US Sports Cards Australia for your ongoing love and support. And we're back with Dan the Cardman and we're going to talk about PSA upcharge.

27:32

27 minutes, 32 seconds

All right, that's the part I'm actually 100% on board with you. So talk to us about upcharge. And maybe some listeners out there aren't familiar with what an

27:39

27 minutes, 39 seconds

upcharge is. So talk to us about what an upcharge is and then and how that So if you look at PSA's website, there's pricing points for different grading

27:47

27 minutes, 47 seconds

streams and most of the early points are around faster turnaround time. So if you want your card graded quickly and sent back to you, you'll pay a higher price, but they have value thresholds on those.

27:57

27 minutes, 57 seconds

And usually I don't remember exactly what it is, but it's like 500 bucks, 2 and a half grand for the first few entry tiers. But as you start getting to the higher tiers, the values are there, but

28:05

28 minutes, 5 seconds

they'll charge you more if your card is a higher value. And it's a bit of a a tricky situation in that if your card grades a higher grade, they'll then look

28:13

28 minutes, 13 seconds

at market comps and things like that and say, "Hey, your card's now worth more because we gave it a nine or a 10 and then charge you more money based on what you originally sent it in for." Yeah.

28:21

28 minutes, 21 seconds

Yeah.

28:22

28 minutes, 22 seconds

And I think their long-term argument on that has always been that the reason we need to charge you an upcharge is because we then provide insurance onto

28:30

28 minutes, 30 seconds

that card. But I think what I've been reading more about lately is that who do you know that's actually had a claim

28:37

28 minutes, 37 seconds

back from PSA and has received a payout from them for that guarantee? Yeah.

28:42

28 minutes, 42 seconds

Do do you personally know anyone or cases?

28:45

28 minutes, 45 seconds

I know. Yes. But the reason why it don't is because they make people sign an NDA. That's why they don't. Right.

28:52

28 minutes, 52 seconds

You don't hear about that.

28:54

28 minutes, 54 seconds

The NDA is conditional on you. So you getting the payout's conditional on you signing the NDA. So, there was a story recently actually of a Pokémon card that I covered where I don't remember the

29:02

29 minutes, 2 seconds

exact grade, but they sent it in to get the details on this show, mate. That's not how we roll here. [laughter] Um, they sent it in to get a reholder, which is it was in an old slab. The

29:10

29 minutes, 10 seconds

person wanted it in the new PSA slab and they damaged it during encapsulation.

29:14

29 minutes, 14 seconds

The car got like melted or something and it was no longer a PSA 9 or 10. I think it was like a PSA 5. So, they paid out on the PSA 10 value. So, the guy got paid out in that particular instance.

29:23

29 minutes, 23 seconds

But, yeah, it's just a really weird thing. I I don't know if I buy the insurance argument. They're grading over 2 million cards a month. My line of thinking has

29:32

29 minutes, 32 seconds

always been on this even when I spoke about it two or three years ago is why not just charge every customer a dollar more. Yeah. Now, effectively, they're doing that.

29:39

29 minutes, 39 seconds

But the reason why they don't is because they're still getting two million people grade with them a month. People don't care.

29:43

29 minutes, 43 seconds

And we talk about PSA consistency and all these other grading inconsistencies.

29:47

29 minutes, 47 seconds

Um people say, "Well, just automate it." Fundamentally, people don't want accurate grades, they want good grades.

29:53

29 minutes, 53 seconds

I think that's where um things are. and my pen fell on the floor. A bit of a mic drop, but people don't want accurate grades. They want they want good ones, which is why they don't really care when

30:01

30 minutes, 1 second

they see all these inconsistencies from PSA and all the others. We are going to take a quick break.

30:05

30 minutes, 5 seconds

Thank you to US Sports Cards Australia for your ongoing love and support. Big update from US Sports Cards Australia and Coma. US Sports Cards Australia is

30:14

30 minutes, 14 seconds

currently transitioning to their new platform, ComCA. During this move, they have temporarily paused new submissions

30:21

30 minutes, 21 seconds

on the US Sports Cards Australia website while they merge products to the new system with numbers well over 50,000.

30:29

30 minutes, 29 seconds

And from me to you, Ross, congratulations on 50K, mate. I know how much work you've put into this. If you are keen to start listing your cards on

30:37

30 minutes, 37 seconds

Comka, reach out to the team via Instagram. And that is comca.tradingards on Instagram. It's got a white

30:45

30 minutes, 45 seconds

background and blue logo lettering. Make sure to mention you're a Yukon Comp.

30:50

30 minutes, 50 seconds

This listener comca are continuing to look after the community. Special offer.

30:55

30 minutes, 55 seconds

Your first 100 cards will be scanned and uploaded for free as a Yukon COP. This listener, continue to check in with comca.com.au.

31:06

31 minutes, 6 seconds

And thank you so much to team US Sports Cards Australia and Comka. and we're going to get back to it and continue our conversation about PSA grading. I think

31:15

31 minutes, 15 seconds

the two things that separated PSA from BGS was that there's no 9.5. I think that caused a lot of confusion for

31:22

31 minutes, 22 seconds

people and essentially they just streamlined and simplified the grading process. And I think for the average collector, there's a nine or a 10.

31:29

31 minutes, 29 seconds

That's easy to get your head around. And then as the market shifted, people were getting a lot more money back from the money they were putting in for grading in terms of like the aftermarket resale

31:38

31 minutes, 38 seconds

value. So for me, that's in my head, that's how that narrative sits. It's as simple as that. People get more money back. Yep.

31:44

31 minutes, 44 seconds

And also, it's easier to understand what a 9 or a 10 is versus a 9.5 subgrades. Yep.

31:51

31 minutes, 51 seconds

Yeah. I um so I said earlier like I use CGC for my PC, but I recently cracked out a lot of my um flawless soccer collection to get into PSA slabs

32:01

32 minutes, 1 second

because I was reaching a point where I wanted to get the money back if I needed to. I've talked about this before on my channel. The reason why that's important to me, it makes sense. You

32:08

32 minutes, 8 seconds

want to get as much money back as possible. But the reason why that's important to me is I approach my collecting by funding itself, right? I hate taking money away from, you know,

32:16

32 minutes, 16 seconds

savings or things like that because I'd rather put that money towards my kids, right? I grew up really poor. I think cards a bit of a funny thing for me. I don't think it's where a lot of my money should be going, right? So, what I do is

32:24

32 minutes, 24 seconds

I buy cards, I sell cards, I use those profits to pay for other cards. And me putting those in the PSA slab is simply because I want to be able to sell them as quickly as possible if I need to, if

32:33

32 minutes, 33 seconds

you know, I want to take my kids on a holiday or something, right? and and PSA gives you that ability where CGC it's a bit harder to sell the prices aren't as high. I just don't want the hassle.

32:42

32 minutes, 42 seconds

Yeah, definitely. And there's nothing wrong with that either, man. It's like that's a very legitimate thing to say.

32:47

32 minutes, 47 seconds

PSA, final thoughts on PSA before we move on to the PSA vault.

32:50

32 minutes, 50 seconds

Not a whole lot that I can think of to be honest. I just don't know where they're going to slow down where the beast stops to be honest because they just continue to grow and and the TCG

32:58

32 minutes, 58 seconds

game is insane right now with the volume they're doing. like they've got a few problems on their hands with the monopoly aspect now given that they've acquired SGC and Becket which is really

33:06

33 minutes, 6 seconds

unfortunate because you've fundamentally got a giant in this space with no direct competition which is quite scary long term but um yeah we'll see what comes from it over the years but I don't think it's very good for consumers.

33:16

33 minutes, 16 seconds

What do you think the long-term prospects of BGS and SGC are?

33:20

33 minutes, 20 seconds

Well, when they acquired SGC they implied they were going to shut them down. When they acquired BGS they did the same thing but now they're sort of

33:29

33 minutes, 29 seconds

bringing them back again. Did I thought they said they were going to put money into Beckett?

33:32

33 minutes, 32 seconds

They they did now. So, initially they weren't and they slowed things down and then they had a bit of a push to to bring them back and they had like a record month in like the last 18 months

33:40

33 minutes, 40 seconds

or something. It was at the Dallas Card Show, I think it was. But I think if things don't change, they'll probably be forced to sell off those brands.

33:47

33 minutes, 47 seconds

Yeah, I think that's where things will head.

33:50

33 minutes, 50 seconds

Yeah, it's a genuine monopoly and it's an absolute conflict of interest. I Y I think it's a pretty straightforward thing. We got a question from Rare Air

33:58

33 minutes, 58 seconds

Sports Cards. Did you crack those SGC slabs yourself, Dan? The SGC slabs. Yeah. Yeah, I did. What do you use? Uh, just like the tin snips or pliers?

34:06

34 minutes, 6 seconds

Tin snips? Yeah. Yeah.

34:07

34 minutes, 7 seconds

Did you have sweaty hands when you're doing it, man? Or are you pretty cool and collected about it?

34:12

34 minutes, 12 seconds

It was a bit stressful, but like I just I got that old I showed this off in stream today. It's a HGA slab that I got done during the pandemic. Actually, the the approach I take is the same one that

34:20

34 minutes, 20 seconds

everyone else does. You clip the corner off, you put a flaad screwdriver in, and you pop it. Yeah. Not sure if you've seen like speaking of cracking slabs, have you ever seen a tag slab? You

34:28

34 minutes, 28 seconds

cannot crack those things, man. You need a jackhammer tag. You can crack them by hand.

34:33

34 minutes, 33 seconds

Actually, I'm not sure if they fix that issue. Yeah, I'll share. Are those really thick ones, though?

34:38

34 minutes, 38 seconds

They're like Oh, they're not that thick. They're very similar to CGC slabs.

34:42

34 minutes, 42 seconds

HDA is what I just had. They're thicker slabs, but TAG, which is the automated grading. Um, yeah.

34:48

34 minutes, 48 seconds

Yeah. Interesting. All right. I want to talk to you about PSA Vault because the concept of the PSA Vault, I think, is amazing, and I really hope that they get

34:56

34 minutes, 56 seconds

this right. Like for me it's a little bit vera swap. I love the idea of vera swap. I just hate hearing all the story the horror stories coming out from it.

35:03

35 minutes, 3 seconds

For me the P vault makes a whole lot of sense because you don't have to worry about storing cards particularly higherend stuff. You don't have to worry

35:10

35 minutes, 10 seconds

about postage. As Australians we then get to also avoid paying the taxes going in and out. You've also got a

35:17

35 minutes, 17 seconds

added bonus of having the liquidity option if you do want to sell it. PSA have got pretty reasonable it looks like buyback system that they're then then

35:25

35 minutes, 25 seconds

farming those cards out to breakers and repackers. So it just seems like there's a little bit of a nice ecosystem.

35:31

35 minutes, 31 seconds

However, there's been a couple of stories that have come up in my feed recently where essentially PSA is selling cards without people's permission.

35:39

35 minutes, 39 seconds

I'm not too sure if you saw the link that I chucked in there, but basically Yeah, I think I covered that story actually where you had instance where they sold a nine and then they realized

35:47

35 minutes, 47 seconds

afterwards that it changed to a 10, right?

35:49

35 minutes, 49 seconds

Yeah. So that was one of them. Do you want to talk about that one first? Yeah.

35:52

35 minutes, 52 seconds

Yeah. So that that was a few months ago, right? I think there was a lot of confusion there cuz that was not long after the PSA office program came to light. They'd sold it via that like they

36:02

36 minutes, 2 seconds

accepted the offer from PSA and then they happened to check assert again a few days later after selling and they noticed that the card was now in a PSA

36:10

36 minutes, 10 seconds

10. I think it was a Pokémon card if I remember correctly. And yeah, there was all the questions off the back of the back off the back of that. Right.

36:16

36 minutes, 16 seconds

we weren't aware um you know was it actually PSA buying it because that that would imply there's a huge conflict of interest right that you've got a grading company buying a card of someone that

36:24

36 minutes, 24 seconds

maybe they've intentionally put a lower grade on and then they wait until after the sale is made to then bump the grade back up to then improve their revenue streams and and essentially apply

36:32

36 minutes, 32 seconds

earnings management but it doesn't look like that was the case it was bought by a third party but still not a good look and obviously there's a lot of kinks that still work through the process but

36:39

36 minutes, 39 seconds

it's stuff like that that are implemented that I think are really good for this industry and for this hobby right you want to remove the friction like you just touched and we're paying all this tax as Aussies in particular.

36:48

36 minutes, 48 seconds

There's a lot of things that are happening that shouldn't, right? So, there's a lot of efficiencies now with stuff like this. It just needs to be implemented and and be more transparent.

36:55

36 minutes, 55 seconds

The office program is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I'm not sure if they've actually implemented this yet, but there's not a whole lot of transparency on who the dealers are. Maybe they've

37:03

37 minutes, 3 seconds

changed that now. I would like them to maybe specify who the person is that's buying it and then how much knowledge they get of when the card is ready to be

37:10

37 minutes, 10 seconds

bought. Um, and stuff like that because from what I understand, the offer is made ahead of time. So they have a list of things and they say, "Hey, I want to buy this card if it comes in in this

37:18

37 minutes, 18 seconds

grade." And that's why the offer is there when the grade pops, but there's also, you know, question marks you can ask around that. Are they disclosing to

37:25

37 minutes, 25 seconds

dealers that this card in this grade is available before they tell you as the customer? There's all that kind of stuff that can go on as well that I think we need more transparency on.

37:33

37 minutes, 33 seconds

I thought there was two parts to it. I thought there was like a a marketplace where you can actually look at cards that are listed for sale in people's PSA

37:42

37 minutes, 42 seconds

vault and then you can almost then you can almost put the cards that you want into a wish list and then if they do come up that's how that you're

37:50

37 minutes, 50 seconds

talking about that sort of automatic offering. I believe that's the PSA offers program.

37:53

37 minutes, 53 seconds

Maybe I got confused. So I'm also talking about the PSA No, not at all. I don't think you're confused at all. I think I was just more trying to say I'm pretty sure this PS this PSA 9 to the 10 story was via the

38:02

38 minutes, 2 seconds

PSA buyback. So, so I'm not sure when the last time you graded with PSA was, but Yeah. Yeah. So, when when the card gets graded, you get the reveal and then you

38:10

38 minutes, 10 seconds

have the option to sell it directly to PSA like instantly. And that's where I think there needs to be more transparency on who the buyer is because it says PSA offer, but it's not PSA

38:19

38 minutes, 19 seconds

buying it. It it could be PSA, but there's also a huge dealer network of people that are part of it that can send those offers.

38:24

38 minutes, 24 seconds

And so, hypothetically, why does that make a difference to you whether it's PSA buying it or a third party? Like what do you think the conflict of interest is there?

38:33

38 minutes, 33 seconds

If well if there's no transparency, let's say it's PSA buying it, who's to like how much power do the employees have in the background on that? Could the grader get in touch with somebody

38:40

38 minutes, 40 seconds

and say, "Hey, we're going to say this is a nine and then change the grade later on like we had in this particular instance." That's where my concern would be that PSA could buy cards for cheaper

38:47

38 minutes, 47 seconds

because they've told you it's a nine when in reality it's a 10. They buy it off you at the nine price, they regrade it to a 10 and they sell it for more. That's where I think the gray area is.

38:57

38 minutes, 57 seconds

Now that's probably not happening, right? It's definitely not happening.

38:59

38 minutes, 59 seconds

But I think that's where the transparency needs to be cuz that's where people's minds go and that's where everybody shifted to when this whole story came up on this PSA 9 to10 situation.

39:07

39 minutes, 7 seconds

Okay. So, let's just take a step back then cuz on that particular case, I thought that they did do that on purpose and I thought that they apparently was an error. Apparently,

39:15

39 minutes, 15 seconds

what happened was when they grade the cards, right, it goes through a QC process. I apologize if you can hear my son crying in the background, but they go through a a QC and QA process. So,

39:22

39 minutes, 22 seconds

they graded it a nine and then they showed it to the customer that it was a nine. What happened in reality was somebody looked at that card afterwards

39:30

39 minutes, 30 seconds

and said, "Hey, it's not a nine. It should be a 10. You've made an error with the grade. Let's go ahead and fix it." And they fixed it, then refreshed the certification page, but it was

39:37

39 minutes, 37 seconds

already sold by that person. Sketchy, shady, but that's um Yeah.

39:42

39 minutes, 42 seconds

I just feel like I'm wearing the skeptic hat right now, and you're actually the voice of reason. I can't believe that we're having this roleplay right now. I I don't believe that for a second, man.

39:50

39 minutes, 50 seconds

Yeah. Like I I think it's in terms of what my general thoughts are, I think um I don't think it was intentional in that particular instance.

39:56

39 minutes, 56 seconds

But to say it's not possible, I would be silly to say I don't have a tinfall hat on as well.

40:02

40 minutes, 2 seconds

My mind my mind goes that stuff is possible. But like I feel like that's it's fraud at the end of the day, right? So I I don't think it happens. I don't think those people have

40:10

40 minutes, 10 seconds

that power. The way you know Nat Turner has explained it is those teams are work working completely separate from each other. They they have no interaction.

40:16

40 minutes, 16 seconds

There's no ability for people to do that. I just think their business processes aren't anywhere near as good as what they think they are and what they should be.

40:23

40 minutes, 23 seconds

I think there's a bit of content out at the moment that's discussing how long the graders will actually look at a card for. And so they're saying about 30 seconds per card.

40:32

40 minutes, 32 seconds

Yep.

40:33

40 minutes, 33 seconds

That's about how long on average. So that means sometimes they'll be looking at them longer than that, sometimes a little bit shorter. For those 30 cards to come back as nines and then someone

40:41

40 minutes, 41 seconds

to then go back to them and think that they were 10. Like that's the part that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. Like from the way they explained it was that it was like a system issue or something along those lines.

40:52

40 minutes, 52 seconds

Yeah.

40:52

40 minutes, 52 seconds

But like I've got a huge problem with the grading process in general. I don't understand why you don't have two people looking at every single card. They should just do a 4 A check and then a

40:59

40 minutes, 59 seconds

six eye check is how it's referred to in the business world. Have at least two people look at every single item. If there's a material difference between those two grades, you have a third

41:06

41 minutes, 6 seconds

person come in and be the deciding factor. That's not how they operate pretty much. I can answer that for you.

41:10

41 minutes, 10 seconds

I think that that would blow out their times from 6 months to about two years.

41:14

41 minutes, 14 seconds

Yep. cuz that would essentially that would triple their operational time and the logistics around that too. So maybe even longer than that.

41:20

41 minutes, 20 seconds

But like that's the scary part about it, right? They're doing so much volume now that whilst the grading guarantee works a bit funkily. If they were to have like

41:28

41 minutes, 28 seconds

a material issue where they've graded so many cards incorrectly, that could bankrupt them, right? Like if they're grading 2 million cards a month and 10%

41:35

41 minutes, 35 seconds

of those are egregiously graded and that 10% of people make a claim, it's going to be a lot of money they have to pay out. They're a billion dollar company.

41:42

41 minutes, 42 seconds

They make a lot of money hand. You know, I I think they need to give a lot more care to it than what they think.

41:48

41 minutes, 48 seconds

Yeah. Okay. But I think practically what happens is though people get their car back, they say, "Oh, this is crap. It's a PSA 10, not a PSA 9." And they crack it out and they send it back in again.

41:55

41 minutes, 55 seconds

So then they double Dutch, right? Yes.

41:57

41 minutes, 57 seconds

I think that's the irony of that situation is that they can do a potentially a subpar job, but then actually benefit from financially.

42:05

42 minutes, 5 seconds

Yes. Yeah. No, for sure. [laughter] All right, let's talk about this one because I think this is an interesting one. Are you familiar with this story?

42:12

42 minutes, 12 seconds

Essentially, a card went into the PSA vault and it was sold twice. The money was deducted out of his account.

42:18

42 minutes, 18 seconds

Yep. This is the one that I I think I covered this the other day. Which what was the card in question again? Maybe you can remind me. I forgot to click on the link. Sorry. One Piece monkey deluxe.

42:27

42 minutes, 27 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, this happened off the back of something that I spoke about recently. So, I believe this was sold via eBay. eBay have implemented this

42:34

42 minutes, 34 seconds

really weird feature now where you send somebody an offer, right? and they accept it or sellers send you an offer and you accept it, but the card stays

42:42

42 minutes, 42 seconds

listed. I'm not sure if you've experienced this yourself, but it's a really shitty thing. Like, it sounds good in practice, but the card stays listed. And the reason why I talked

42:50

42 minutes, 50 seconds

about this was because there's no way for the buyer and seller to communicate.

42:52

42 minutes, 52 seconds

So, I sold a card recently, an NRL card, and um I was like, what the heck? I couldn't talk to the person. They end up not paying, right? So, the cards they listed, they didn't pay. It was great.

43:01

43 minutes, 1 second

Yeah.

43:01

43 minutes, 1 second

This happened in this particular instance where the card was taken down.

43:05

43 minutes, 5 seconds

They had the 24 hours to pay for it or sorry, the card wasn't taken down. They had 24 hours to pay for it. They did pay for it, but their payment method wasn't

43:12

43 minutes, 12 seconds

registered via eBay until after the 24-hour period had elapsed. Yeah.

43:17

43 minutes, 17 seconds

So, the money was taken, then the card went relisted to somebody else, and somebody else bought it like 10 days later, I think, for like $2,000 more.

43:23

43 minutes, 23 seconds

So, this was a eBay issue, not a PSA issue. um in just terms of how eBay implement that feature which is ridiculous the fact that the payment was

43:31

43 minutes, 31 seconds

sent and it timed out and you know it worked out for the seller in this particular instance because they made more money but you know not a good look

43:38

43 minutes, 38 seconds

it's a really like it's a really crappy feature like I said from from eBay I've not experienced it before I went through it four times in the last 6 weeks and

43:46

43 minutes, 46 seconds

apparently it's been implemented since like 2 years ago and a lot of people are sort of guess getting added into it now but it doesn't really work super well um

43:53

43 minutes, 53 seconds

the language is really negative the per the buyers under real no real pressure to pay or anything like that, but one to look into. So, yeah, that wasn't a PSA

44:00

44 minutes

specific issue. That was an eBay an eBay issue.

44:02

44 minutes, 2 seconds

Yeah. Interesting. All right. So, I think my final my final thought here that I want to run past you, and then I'll sort of give you like an open mic.

44:11

44 minutes, 11 seconds

I think my concern with PSA at the moment is how they determine what the the pricing is because I feel like at

44:18

44 minutes, 18 seconds

the moment they're determining the value of cards and then they determine what your up charge will be. But in addition to that, they're also buying and selling

44:26

44 minutes, 26 seconds

in and out of the market. And then we we had that one we talked about before.

44:30

44 minutes, 30 seconds

We've given them the benefit of the doubt, but they were buying the PSA 9, you know, potentially could have been PSA 10. So I I just really think at the

44:37

44 minutes, 37 seconds

moment PSA have a conflict of interest in that sense because like not only are they grading the cards, they also in some ways are determining like what the

44:45

44 minutes, 45 seconds

the market value of cards are too. So I think that's that's really tricky. How do you separate that? Yep.

44:52

44 minutes, 52 seconds

I don't know if you can. I think it's a huge problem and it's made even more confusing when you look at the fact that they now certify repacks which the news around that sort of died down a little

45:00

45 minutes

bit but they're now certifying repacks and I feel like that's a huge conflict as well right I think Cart HQ which is Jeff Wilson's business was the first one

45:08

45 minutes, 8 seconds

to start using them they're certifying a repack and they want to do a good job so they want this breaker they want this business to keep using them and then

45:15

45 minutes, 15 seconds

putting PSA cars into those repacks um do you think it's not a conflict for them to maybe bump up some of the grades on those cars to keep everybody happy to and put them into the repack that

45:23

45 minutes, 23 seconds

they're certifying. They're doing a lot of things that I think are outside of their will wheelhouse. The whole market value stuff is a big problem as well.

45:31

45 minutes, 31 seconds

I've talked to a lot of big-time PSA dealers is one that's a big time breaker. And he showed me a lot of emails and conversations he was having with PSA on how they were determining

45:40

45 minutes, 40 seconds

value. They're essentially cherrypicking some comps. [snorts] Um there's a lot of issues with new product that gets releases where you don't have a direct comp for what

45:47

45 minutes, 47 seconds

I think comps are always favorable to them.

45:49

45 minutes, 49 seconds

Yeah, they are. They cherry pick. I think they win every time in in that instance of that that story that I mentioned where the card was damaged. Like when it comes to

45:58

45 minutes, 58 seconds

upcharges, they cherry picked the ones that are the highest and then in that damage story that I I mentioned earlier, they they ignored certain comps. They ignored recent comps because they were

46:06

46 minutes, 6 seconds

too recent. They were too much of an outlier from the the average. Yeah.

46:10

46 minutes, 10 seconds

So, it's just a it's a crap thing, but it goes back to the point earlier, right, where they have this monopoly and you can't really do anything about it because what are you going to do? Like

46:17

46 minutes, 17 seconds

a judge, jury, executioner over Exactly. So there they're just doing way too many things that I think um are not conducive to a fair environment and a

46:26

46 minutes, 26 seconds

fair economy within this hobby. But like I don't know what we do.

46:29

46 minutes, 29 seconds

What nuts got a policy now where I think I can use neon as an example. I don't think this is this is not privileged information. So they have essentially

46:36

46 minutes, 36 seconds

like a business entity for their breaking platform and they have a business entity for their repacks and that and that's a that's across all of the different whatnot accounts.

46:46

46 minutes, 46 seconds

Mhm. the exact reason why you have to have that. I don't understand it. I've never asked them why, but that that's what it is. Yeah.

46:53

46 minutes, 53 seconds

So, I wonder if that's what PSA needs to do. They need to have one entity that manages grading the cards, and they need another entity that manages the buyback

47:01

47 minutes, 1 second

program, the repacking processes, that process that then sells it on to to breakers. Because I actually think

47:08

47 minutes, 8 seconds

there's a lot of benefit from buying out of the PSA vault and having that pipeline that does go out to breakers.

47:14

47 minutes, 14 seconds

like that creates this whole ecosystem that that we do need and I think in the world that we currently live in where everyone does want things instantly and there's

47:22

47 minutes, 22 seconds

that arena club repack service that frankly I think has just tapped into collector's psyche in such a powerful way.

47:30

47 minutes, 30 seconds

Mhm.

47:31

47 minutes, 31 seconds

It with the instant buyback you can then just roll your money you know back into the next repack. It it does kind of make sense, but I think that will be my

47:38

47 minutes, 38 seconds

solution for it is that they create a second.

47:41

47 minutes, 41 seconds

I agree. They have to be separate. And like they've talked in the past that the teams are very different. They've got no ways of interacting and um like implying pressure over each other. Like you can't

47:50

47 minutes, 50 seconds

have somebody doing something shady in one part to then have it trickle down the line. But you know, at worst there's a potential for it to happen and at best um it's not optically that good, right?

47:59

47 minutes, 59 seconds

There's a lot more that they could be doing to sort of, you know, protect consumers and make things a bit clearer.

48:04

48 minutes, 4 seconds

And the way you said it is exactly that there are other issues like with PSA as well that gets pushed back a lot on in the in the past around you know Nat Turner grading his own cards with PSA.

48:13

48 minutes, 13 seconds

Yeah.

48:14

48 minutes, 14 seconds

Um like conflicts of interest with regards to that and I think that's a big problem as well.

48:18

48 minutes, 18 seconds

They shouldn't be grading their own cards. I mean is why are we they're not the ones grading their own cards but the fact like they I don't think they should be allowed to have their own card graded by their own

48:25

48 minutes, 25 seconds

business because I'll say this why are we having this conversation like they shouldn't be allowed to do it. You know what I mean? But but people have normalized it right?

48:32

48 minutes, 32 seconds

They've said it's fine. But you got to think through the perspective, right?

48:35

48 minutes, 35 seconds

You've potentially got this employee on minimum wage. They know which cards their boss owns. They know which ones he like to collect. All of a sudden, you see a freaking $2 million Michael Jordan

48:43

48 minutes, 43 seconds

come through the door PMG, whatever it is.

48:45

48 minutes, 45 seconds

Like, you have a suspicion that it's maybe him. You want to do good. There's all these things that go on, right, that it's like, well, just don't even put like when I talk about this in the past,

48:54

48 minutes, 54 seconds

right? When it comes to independence and making sure you don't do certain things, it always comes back to the perceived threat to your independence. Don't even give the the public the the thought process that you're doing something

49:02

49 minutes, 2 seconds

wrong. Just don't do it. Keep it at arms length and move on is how it should be.

49:05

49 minutes, 5 seconds

Yeah. I think in so many different industries that's already standard. Yeah.

49:09

49 minutes, 9 seconds

Like if you work at a casino, you can't then go and gamble at the same casino. Yeah.

49:14

49 minutes, 14 seconds

You know, if you're a doctor, you can't you technically can prescribe to yourself, but that's not something that is encouraged or they should be doing, you know.

49:22

49 minutes, 22 seconds

Yeah. But it's just a lot of pain points on on that. And like I know you want to jump to the next piece, but just quickly like there's a lot No, no, don't. [clears throat] No, don't feel like that at all. Not at all.

49:31

49 minutes, 31 seconds

There's a lot of things that go on in this industry. I I feel like the sports card industry is like 20 years behind where it should be. You've had these

49:39

49 minutes, 39 seconds

businesses operate in this realm for so many years where they could just sort of do it halfass. They make good money, but they weren't taken super seriously in

49:46

49 minutes, 46 seconds

the grand scheme of things. Now it's a multi-billion dollar industry.

49:49

49 minutes, 49 seconds

It's unregulated. You got, you know, it's essentially the wild west and they're almost operating to the same standards that was set, you know, 20 years ago.

49:57

49 minutes, 57 seconds

Like I said before, you you've you've had your risk appetite here and you've sort of had the the risk the actual risk over here, right? And they sort of matched it, right? In terms of what

50:04

50 minutes, 4 seconds

they're charging, it's sort of on level, but now they're charging you through the roof, but they've kept the same policies and procedures all the way down here when they really need to be uplifting

50:12

50 minutes, 12 seconds

them to match the risk that customers are now exposed to that they themselves as a business are now exposed to. Like the grading guarantee is an example of that. Um, you know, there's a a lot of

50:20

50 minutes, 20 seconds

things that go on in this space that I think they need to be doing better at, and that's all businesses, not not just PSA.

50:25

50 minutes, 25 seconds

If Adam was here, would we just be saying regulate the hobby? So, what would you want to see if we were to regulate the hobby? Give us your top three regulation points.

50:32

50 minutes, 32 seconds

Well, I think like breaking is a main one. I want to see I want to see every single live selling app have policies like what whatnot have just implemented,

50:40

50 minutes, 40 seconds

the spending limits, the watchtime limits. I want to see trainings put in place for breakers that are selling on these platforms. I think that's the main thing that I'd look to fix. Um, can't

50:49

50 minutes, 49 seconds

think of anything else off the top of my head, but I think breaking is the main because I because I see it as gambling, right? Um, and I just I I don't see how

50:57

50 minutes, 57 seconds

it's not and I just don't think it's operating how it should in these businesses. As I've said for the last 3 years, I was one of the first people to talk about regulation coming in for

51:05

51 minutes, 5 seconds

breaking, right? I got laughed at by all these big channels and all these big creators. Like, they need to fix it for themselves before somebody else does it for them. And they're not going to like if somebody else does it for them.

51:14

51 minutes, 14 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. And there simple things like you said earlier, just have enforce multiple cameras. Okay, sure you might lose some of your customer base, but is

51:21

51 minutes, 21 seconds

that the end of the world? But they want to make money. I get it.

51:24

51 minutes, 24 seconds

Ah, I think yeah, money is definitely something that drives it through. I think it's a matter of time until this gets picked up because there was actually an American senator who spoke about sports cards in Congress recently.

51:35

51 minutes, 35 seconds

So, it's if it's happened once, like it it's not that far away before it, you know, happens twice. We're going to jump to like Mr.

51:41

51 minutes, 41 seconds

wonderful and shines card shortly. But you've got him masquerading at was it the Oscars wearing a card around the chain or was it the Grammys? One of the two.

51:49

51 minutes, 49 seconds

Um [clears throat] you've got all these guys like Michael Rubin now trying to make it mainstream.

51:52

51 minutes, 52 seconds

You're bringing all these eyeballs. Like if I'm in a tax department around these countries be like, "Well, I want some of that. Give me a piece of the pie."

52:01

52 minutes, 1 second

Like it's it's all money left on the table. Like people want money. It's going to happen at some point if they don't fix it for themselves.

52:07

52 minutes, 7 seconds

Australian customs have already worked it out, man.

52:09

52 minutes, 9 seconds

Yeah, [laughter] I know. I got I got hit really hard on a CGC um submission that I made. Actually, they they ended up not

52:16

52 minutes, 16 seconds

charging me in the end. Um but I was over in Hong Kong for a show. I was actually there for a wedding, but it was the first Asia Sports Card Collectors Convention. And I dropped off some cards

52:25

52 minutes, 25 seconds

out at um CGC. And when they came back, customs not only wanted to charge me the the tax on the grading service, but they

52:32

52 minutes, 32 seconds

wanted to charge me on the valuations of the cards themselves. I'm like, "Well, these cards originated from Australia. I already owed them. I've already paid tax on them. Here's all the proof." and they said, "Well, no, you have to pay it

52:40

52 minutes, 40 seconds

again." It was this whole back and forth, but yeah, they they love to get us now.

52:44

52 minutes, 44 seconds

Like, I've already paid tax. Why are you making me pay tax again?

52:47

52 minutes, 47 seconds

I get it on the SL, but not on something that I've already paid tax on, right?

52:50

52 minutes, 50 seconds

I'm very triggered about how much tax we're currently pay. Can we can we please talk about something other than tax? It's just going to make it's actually going to make me sad. Yeah. All

52:58

52 minutes, 58 seconds

right. So, when we uh when we were talking about this that the plan for today's show, we're going to do like a 30 minute dander man. Uh and then we're going to do a 30 minute you can't comp

53:06

53 minutes, 6 seconds

this. I would say in true you can't comp this fashion, we've completely segueed out of control here, which has been fantastic. We've got about five minutes

53:15

53 minutes, 15 seconds

left. Can we do a couple of you can't comp this type? Yeah.

53:18

53 minutes, 18 seconds

Um, storylines. And yeah, you you knocked it on the head. The first first one I wanted to talk about was this Mr.

53:25

53 minutes, 25 seconds

Wonderful thing. So, I think the context or the setting for this is that he is essentially dipping into trading cards and his belief is these aren't trading

53:33

53 minutes, 33 seconds

cards. The ultra high-end stuff are like Rembrandts and Mones and long-term they're going to be worth millions of dollars more than what they're currently

53:40

53 minutes, 40 seconds

trading at. Um the one that he's got around his neck is the Jewel Logerman Kobe Jordan oncard autograph. He paid nearly 13 million US for it. Talk to me

53:50

53 minutes, 50 seconds

about this concept of people bringing in a lot of eyeballs and a whole lot of cash into the hobby. And what's the trickle down effect in your opinion?

53:58

53 minutes, 58 seconds

Like I I I So when we see this sale, don't like people get excited. They think every card is now going to be worth a shitload of money. Um, so I don't think that's going to happen. I

54:06

54 minutes, 6 seconds

think I think it's good that there's a lot of eyeballs on it because when you look at the hobby today, like I said, you know, 10 years ago, I felt like it was a lot of fun. I could buy all these boxes. I could buy all these cards. I

54:14

54 minutes, 14 seconds

could collect a lot of really cool things and I can't really buy boxes these days because I'm a little bit priced out. But there are a lot of really good things that have happened off the back of these kinds of eyeballs

54:22

54 minutes, 22 seconds

coming. So, the hobby is in a fantastic spot right now. There are so many sets being made.

54:26

54 minutes, 26 seconds

Um, there are so many more companies participating. There's so many more things and accessibility features within the industry that make it a lot better.

54:31

54 minutes, 31 seconds

And I think eyeballs like this make it happen. This one thing in particular, like I just don't like the fact that it's associated with the people involved

54:38

54 minutes, 38 seconds

because I think it's more of a cash grab and looking at ways to generate additional money off the back of collectors. Um, you know, Mr. Wonderful,

54:46

54 minutes, 46 seconds

I'm not sure if you're a watch guy, but I am. And he's essentially done the same thing in the past when it came to that collectible hobby. Talked about them through the same lens about them being

54:55

54 minutes, 55 seconds

um these kinds of asset classes and they should be seen like fine art and the like.

54:59

54 minutes, 59 seconds

Okay. So I don't even wear a watch. So I am absolutely not a watch guy. If can you please tell me about So if this has

55:06

55 minutes, 6 seconds

already happened and it's a cycle it's about to repeat. He enters into a space and then he exit in so many years like okay if it's already happened what happened to him in watches?

55:15

55 minutes, 15 seconds

I think it sort of fell by the wayside.

55:17

55 minutes, 17 seconds

So like I do I've done a comparison on this before on my channel but I like big into watches and you know watches fundamentally followed the same trend that sports car did you

55:26

55 minutes, 26 seconds

know four or five years ago where you had all these people sitting on their hands production stopped um the price of these things went through the roof because they had all this excess income

55:34

55 minutes, 34 seconds

and they wanted to start buying things right they wanted to do something with their time and what happened with watches in particular was because production fundamentally

55:41

55 minutes, 41 seconds

stopped you had like $10,000 watches like a Rolex Submariner as an example selling for like 30 grand or $30,000 in Australia. I forget what it was. Yeah. Right.

55:49

55 minutes, 49 seconds

But there was a lot of parallels to what happened there to sports cars. But where watches went wrong was that the prices reached a point where they just kept flipping between flippers. Like an end

55:58

55 minutes, 58 seconds

consumer wasn't buying these watches anymore. And you know, nobody wanted to pay 30K for a watch that was worth 10 grand. And then once production opened up again, all this stuff fell through the floor. So you had people like Mr.

56:06

56 minutes, 6 seconds

Wonderful come in and not Mr. Wonderful, um, Kevin Larry, same person, but I want to call him by his real name.

56:12

56 minutes, 12 seconds

um came in and was was passionate about it, creating content with a guy like Teddy Baldesar and a few others um and was

56:20

56 minutes, 20 seconds

talking about watches and wanted to create like the same sort of things he's trying to do with this card where it's like an ETF and get people investing in and trying to fractionalize them and

56:28

56 minutes, 28 seconds

talk about um the price points they want to reach and things like that. And it sort of fell through the floor, like I said, because production opened up again

56:36

56 minutes, 36 seconds

and people just wanted to stop paying crazy money for watches that actually weren't that scarce. Now, watches have stayed on course for the high-end stuff and the precious metal stuff and things

56:44

56 minutes, 44 seconds

like that, but fundamentally everything else has gone back to BAU. And he is still passionate about watches. You'll often see him, he wears a watch on each wrist,

56:52

56 minutes, 52 seconds

but it's not the same. And I encourage everyone to go back and watch like conversations he had with Teddy Bulasar and others. And you'll see that the same

56:59

56 minutes, 59 seconds

terminology he uses for watches are now being applied to cards. And I'm not surprised he uses I'm not surprised he uses the same terminology, man. like that that would be his thought

57:08

57 minutes, 8 seconds

process about how he approaches all of his investment strategies.

57:11

57 minutes, 11 seconds

My yeah, which is what it is, right? So like um I think some people when I mentioned that on my videos thought that I was just talking about how how he talks, right? How his vernacular is

57:20

57 minutes, 20 seconds

applied and all that kind of stuff. But it was how he sees it as an asset class. And when you look at him coming in and then leaving that space and then seeing it being applied to here where he knows

57:29

57 minutes, 29 seconds

even less, right? Because the one credit to him for watches was he's a watch nerd. He's got a huge collection. He knows about all that sort of stuff. He's passionate about it. Um, and I'm not

57:37

57 minutes, 37 seconds

sure if you've seen him. The way he says passion is a bit funny. He likes to put on a bit of an accent. Um, but he doesn't really um, know a lot about cards. I feel like a lot of the same sort of stuff is going on here, which is

57:45

57 minutes, 45 seconds

why I don't like it. It's where things get a bit sketchy for me where they they get the eyeballs and they start following people that maybe they shouldn't and they're not being super

57:53

57 minutes, 53 seconds

educated. But again, there's a lot of content out there that sort of helps people now. So, yeah. Look, I think my thought process

58:00

58 minutes

around this is that we probably should be thanking Kevin Olirri because it's really hard to buy that much publicity and the amount of publicity that he's

58:09

58 minutes, 9 seconds

given us is it's a lot. But I think from the the bigger sort of helicopter perspective for me it's there seems to

58:17

58 minutes, 17 seconds

be a lot of really big sales that are happening at the moment. And so if we can talk about that for a couple of seconds. So, in a 2-hour period on the

58:24

58 minutes, 24 seconds

24th of April, a Kobe PMG sold for 3.15 million. Michael Jordan Upper Deck 1997

58:32

58 minutes, 32 seconds

game jersey sold on well sold via Golden's. It was a a broker deal um that

58:38

58 minutes, 38 seconds

sold for 4.25 million. And there was two Jordan auto log and one of which

58:45

58 minutes, 45 seconds

surfaced on Instagram at Waldo. Oh jeez, I can never pronounce these. Waldo RF

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58 minutes, 53 seconds

stories. And so I think that's what I'm really interested in at the moment because are we currently in a high-end bubble or are people starting now to

59:01

59 minutes, 1 second

realize that actually this stuff is undervalued and we should be putting investment fund cash into it?

59:07

59 minutes, 7 seconds

I think it's a bit of both. Um, I mentioned earlier that I was on the Professor Sports Cards collision show the other day, a hobby collision, and

59:14

59 minutes, 14 seconds

Chris Hoj was actually on there, who's one of the the founders and owners of Card Ladder, and he we got all asked the same question on whether or not we

59:22

59 minutes, 22 seconds

thought a correction or crash was coming.

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59 minutes, 24 seconds

Um, I think he gave it a six or seven out of 10 in terms of he thinks one is coming.

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59 minutes, 29 seconds

And I I think that applies for a lot of the spending that you see going on in this space. I think stuff like this is truly scarce, though. So I think

59:37

59 minutes, 37 seconds

like the the vintage stuff I think will be fine for the most part. I think you know the early you know exquisite stuff and the one of ones and things like this that you just mentioned will probably be

59:45

59 minutes, 45 seconds

fine whether or not they're going to fetch that kind of money long term but at the end of the day they are truly scarce cards that they can't be replaced. They're always going to be the first. They're always going to be the

59:53

59 minutes, 53 seconds

things that people want to try and chase. So I think they're always going to have you know people interested in them. And the fact you've got so many investors now at the high end being

1:00:02

1 hour, 2 seconds

interested um is a really cool thing. I think for the most part because I think the trickle down effect will mean that we get more product like I've got a very

1:00:09

1 hour, 9 seconds

inexpensive box over here like a Disney Wonders I bought this for my daughter right this this would not have been made 10 years ago so without this kind of money being

1:00:17

1 hour, 17 seconds

spent on things like that so like I think there will be um effects for you and I but for the most part I think it's like irrelevant yeah I I think for me it's more just an

1:00:25

1 hour, 25 seconds

interesting sort of side point that have I have been going through my head and absolutely you're right I'm never going to be buying into this 50,000 and above

1:00:32

1 hour, 32 seconds

price point like it's just not where I So, this one here is the the Skybox EX 2001. Um, Adam Gray, I'm sure you know

1:00:40

1 hour, 40 seconds

about this guy. If you don't, however, he's great.

1:00:43

1 hour, 43 seconds

Give this guy a follow. He's just an absolute champion. Do you know he used to make a a magazine? He did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:00:50

1 hour, 50 seconds

Look, he's great. I love the way he talks about his collection. He does every year like the 100 case countdown and things like that. um

1:00:58

1 hour, 58 seconds

was was today wearing this card was oh that's still no this has still got six more days. So

1:01:05

1 hour, 1 minute, 5 seconds

three days ago it had nine more days it's currently up to 250k already. So like you know another one that's going

1:01:12

1 hour, 1 minute, 12 seconds

to like that's going to go to a million isn't it?

1:01:15

1 hour, 1 minute, 15 seconds

Yeah for sure at this rate. Yeah but there's a lot of crazy money being spent. It's got the NBA sticker which people go crazy for which I think is crazy. Um,

1:01:23

1 hour, 1 minute, 23 seconds

but it's interesting. Obviously, you're seeing you're seeing a lot of money coming in like Logan Paul has implemented or he's launching his like ripet platform.

1:01:30

1 hour, 1 minute, 30 seconds

You had the the illustrated Pikachu card that he sold that has a new person off the back of it looking to start a media company and all that kind of thing.

1:01:37

1 hour, 1 minute, 37 seconds

There's a lot of, you know, institutional money coming in. I think it's very scary for us as the traditional consumer because, you know, what is that going to mean for us long

1:01:45

1 hour, 1 minute, 45 seconds

term, but for the most part, I don't think it it really impacts us all that much.

1:01:50

1 hour, 1 minute, 50 seconds

Yeah. So that Logan Paul guy, I'm not a big fan of him, but when they did that auction and it was in combination with

1:01:58

1 hour, 1 minute, 58 seconds

Golden, I'm actually not too sure of what the platform is called, but the concept of that where it's almost like a TV show and you tune into it and then

1:02:06

1 hour, 2 minutes, 6 seconds

everybody gets to see the high-end auctions and the bids that's going on around it, like just the entertainment aspect of that. Certainly. Yeah.

1:02:14

1 hour, 2 minutes, 14 seconds

And then also to the potential for that TV show. So you could actually make it a TV show. So then you have sports celebrities come on. You could have card

1:02:21

1 hour, 2 minutes, 21 seconds

celebrities going or even just you know talking heads like imagine like someone from ESPN but the equivalent of that for

1:02:29

1 hour, 2 minutes, 29 seconds

cards and then they're hosting this this TV show that has people doing interviews talking about cards and then at the same

1:02:36

1 hour, 2 minutes, 36 seconds

time the main event of the show is a million dollar Jordan type thing. Like how sick would that be man? That would be awesome.

1:02:43

1 hour, 2 minutes, 43 seconds

Yeah. I don't like Logan Paul at all, but like I I'm pretty sure that's his platform.

1:02:48

1 hour, 2 minutes, 48 seconds

I'm not into Ripet. The the Is that what it's called? Ripet, is it?

1:02:52

1 hour, 2 minutes, 52 seconds

Ripet is his platform that he's launched. Is that what it's doing? I thought so. I've not looked into it cuz I I can't stand the guy myself and I think he's been involved in too many shady things, not just in this space, but others.

1:03:01

1 hour, 3 minutes, 1 second

Um 100%.

1:03:03

1 hour, 3 minutes, 3 seconds

The guy that won the card, I think, is looking to launch a media company off the back of it. I don't remember what it was called. Um but he's going to go around filming big collectibles that he's buying and winning and all that

1:03:11

1 hour, 3 minutes, 11 seconds

kind of crap. But I I don't I don't um I think that would be really cool. It's fundamentally what Golden does, right, in terms of the Netflix show, but it'd be good to see a live component as well.

1:03:20

1 hour, 3 minutes, 20 seconds

I would love to see Golden live basically. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:24

1 hour, 3 minutes, 24 seconds

Like cool because that that stuff is cool. Sorry to cut you off. That would be cool to to get that insight, right?

1:03:30

1 hour, 3 minutes, 30 seconds

Because you know, as as an average collector, you got to be exposed to that kind of stuff. And it's cool to see not just the card itself, but the story behind it, right? Why it's so important.

1:03:39

1 hour, 3 minutes, 39 seconds

And like Adam Gray is one of those people that talks about these things extremely well. It's why I love to follow him because he has so many interesting facts around certain cards

1:03:47

1 hour, 3 minutes, 47 seconds

and why they're important and why they're truly scarce, which when you look at the modern print runs of cards and releases, it's it's such a far cry.

1:03:54

1 hour, 3 minutes, 54 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. He's got 50 years of knowledge underneath his armpit.

1:03:59

1 hour, 3 minutes, 59 seconds

Yeah. He's sick. Yeah. All right. Final card for today, man. And the concept I wanted to talk to about this is the current observation that we're seeing at

1:04:06

1 hour, 4 minutes, 6 seconds

the moment with all these 90s inserts just exploding. In particular, Jordan going to the moon. This one in particular is a 1996 Flare Showcase

1:04:14

1 hour, 4 minutes, 14 seconds

Legacy Edition row 0 PSA8. It's sold for $50,400. Population on that is 8. It's numbered to 150. Talk to me about this.

1:04:24

1 hour, 4 minutes, 24 seconds

What's your observation of Jordans lately and how that's impacting the market?

1:04:28

1 hour, 4 minutes, 28 seconds

Again, we had the hobby collision and the conversation came up. Are you buying or selling Jordan? I'd say buying because like I think his card can

1:04:35

1 hour, 4 minutes, 35 seconds

honestly truly only go up. And you know, Chris Hoge again was on the show. He is a passionate Jordan collector. His name is House of Jordan. So for someone like

1:04:44

1 hour, 4 minutes, 44 seconds

him to still be actively chasing them, I think tells you again all you need to know. But um their cards that are truly scarce. So even though this thing's probably out of 50, like how many were

1:04:52

1 hour, 4 minutes, 52 seconds

ripped up by kids that had no idea what they had? You know, there's probably not a whole lot of them out there. So this kind of stuff I think is always going to be, you know, things that people are

1:05:00

1 hour, 5 minutes

passionate about. The It'd be interesting to see in like 20 years time what that next generation of kids think of Jordan and whether that impacts his

1:05:08

1 hour, 5 minutes, 8 seconds

price points at all because maybe they've shifted to LeBron or Kodi Kobe or or Steph Curry, man.

1:05:14

1 hour, 5 minutes, 14 seconds

Yeah. So that's the element that I'm the Curry rookie recently outsold the LeBron rookie and the LeBron was a

1:05:21

1 hour, 5 minutes, 21 seconds

higher grade than the Steph Curry. So, I'm not too sure if that was just a single sale and it's just a one-off, but if for me, actually, well, I think that's a general

1:05:29

1 hour, 5 minutes, 29 seconds

sentiment, right? Like I most people that I talk to can't stand LeBron and not just I don't think it's got anything to do with his gameplay. Maybe some of

1:05:37

1 hour, 5 minutes, 37 seconds

it does with his flopping and things like that, but they just seem to like him as a person. He's not as likable as, you know, like a Kobe or a Jordan. And

1:05:44

1 hour, 5 minutes, 44 seconds

and Curry gets people rolled up like like others don't. So, I feel like that's why he's maybe a bit more um what's the word I'm looking for?

1:05:52

1 hour, 5 minutes, 52 seconds

appealing to to current likable likable. Yeah. Yeah.

1:05:56

1 hour, 5 minutes, 56 seconds

All righty, man. Final thoughts and then we'll sign off this bad boy.

1:06:00

1 hour, 6 minutes

Nothing on this other than apologies if we can still hear my kids screaming.

1:06:03

1 hour, 6 minutes, 3 seconds

They've gone bananas. Um, yeah. Like the Jordan the world we signed up for, man.

1:06:07

1 hour, 6 minutes, 7 seconds

It's scarce, right? So, like it's it's it's I'd much rather see someone pay 50 grand on this than some dumb prospect

1:06:14

1 hour, 6 minutes, 14 seconds

from today's game, right? Because like it's crazy. Like talking about the greatest player of all time and it's not just what he did on the court, right? He

1:06:21

1 hour, 6 minutes, 21 seconds

is so culturally relevant. Like people that don't even like basketball know who this guy is. Yeah.

1:06:26

1 hour, 6 minutes, 26 seconds

You can go to all the corners of the world and not be able to tell you about him. So that stuff is cool. And then to have a card that's from that, you know, 30 years ago now, um, or 20 years ago,

1:06:35

1 hour, 6 minutes, 35 seconds

whatever it is, 30 years ago, and be in a decent grade is pretty cool.

1:06:39

1 hour, 6 minutes, 39 seconds

I think if I'm speaking against Chris, I'm obviously wrong what I'm about to say, but I think when I look at the indexes, just it's too much of a steep incline at the moment. So I'm my gut

1:06:48

1 hour, 6 minutes, 48 seconds

feeling is it's currently in a bubble and it's probably going to even out a little bit.

1:06:52

1 hour, 6 minutes, 52 seconds

Yeah. So like I I think his talking points were that we are in a bit of a market correction but I think it's from because from his perspective and I don't put words in his mouth but he chases

1:07:00

1 hour, 7 minutes

those truly he traces those truly scarce Jordans, right? So they're almost at the point where when they come up you have to buy them and there'll be es and flows of price point.

1:07:08

1 hour, 7 minutes, 8 seconds

Sure. But you know those cards I think people are going to chase you know in 10 years time. It's sort of like you know buying precious metals right? You you don't buy it to sell tomorrow. you buy

1:07:16

1 hour, 7 minutes, 16 seconds

to sell in 20 or 30 years time and over that period it should be going upwards.

1:07:20

1 hour, 7 minutes, 20 seconds

No. Yeah. And I think the other thing I think about too is why is Jordan so hot right now? Like aren't people buying more Koopa flags? I know Conupo a lot of

1:07:29

1 hour, 7 minutes, 29 seconds

money's gone into him and so much money's been spent on breaking at the moment. So it just really makes me sort of wonder like what it's all going on.

1:07:38

1 hour, 7 minutes, 38 seconds

So yeah, I just think there's a lot of money being spent. Then you have like all those eyeballs that we mentioned earlier with people like a liy getting involved and becoming a bit more mainstream like because everything else

1:07:46

1 hour, 7 minutes, 46 seconds

is pushing upwards. That's why then Jordan prices move as well because they're like well hey I want a Jordan.

1:07:52

1 hour, 7 minutes, 52 seconds

Yeah. I also wondered too maybe they're going into like funds or they're going into investment some of that too for sure.

1:07:57

1 hour, 7 minutes, 57 seconds

And so the investment groups are like who is the guy that's the safest out of all these? Okay.

1:08:02

1 hour, 8 minutes, 2 seconds

Jordan is the safest so you know let's jump into that. Yeah.

1:08:06

1 hour, 8 minutes, 6 seconds

All right man. Look thank you so much for this. It's been an absolute honor to have you on to the show and thank you for all the work that you do for the community and also as an Aussie content

1:08:15

1 hour, 8 minutes, 15 seconds

creator. It's great to uh to break the podcast bread with you. So, thank you so much.

1:08:20

1 hour, 8 minutes, 20 seconds

Appreciate you, mate. Thank you for having me on. It was great.

1:08:22

1 hour, 8 minutes, 22 seconds

Everyone who tuned into the feed today, thank you so much for tuning in and we'll catch you for the next one.

1:08:27

1 hour, 8 minutes, 27 seconds

Bye-bye for now. Shout outs Piggy Spanx, Boom Kaboom, Rare Air, Revo, TCG, Jumbo,

1:08:34

1 hour, 8 minutes, 34 seconds

Min Collectibles, Killer Boy, CB, sorry, CXB cards, Jaden Morangon, and My Sportsman. Ma'am.